Popper requires multiple hits before falling: REF or not? Split from a

[motosapiens]

Popper question ever settled?

Yes it did thank god. No reshoot once a popper is shot down.

So I have a hypothetical question.... What if you were at a match, and you were shooting, and you shot several shots at a popper, and it finally went down, and you didn't say anything, but the RO examined the popper and decided there was a range equipment problem and offered you a reshoot.... What would you do? Would you reshoot? or would you stand on your principles and your understanding of the rules and educate the RO that no reshoot was allowed?

It's kinda funny that last week this exact situation came about in our local match. I was the first shooter, and the popper was clearly f$-ed, but went down after 5 shots or so in 1 second. I said under the rules I probably wasn't entitled to a reshoot, but after the situation was rectified, I took it. We had hellacious wind that day, btw, so we ended up converting the poppers in 2 bays to static steel and just calling the hits because they would blow over every 15 seconds unless set hard enough that major rounds wouldn't reliably take them down.

But anyway, I'm curious Sarge, I know you wouldn't ask for a reshoot or calibration or whatever if the popper finally fell, but what would you do if the RO offered a reshoot when an apparent problem was recognized and then fixed? Just curious. hypothetically ya know....

Simple answer -- ask for the CRO or RM to educate the match staff......

What if at this hypothetical match the CRO and RM agreed that there was a problem with the popper even tho it went down, and ordered a re-shoot? I'm just hypothetically curious.... I don't really know much about the situation sarge is describing at Battle in the Bluegrass where it sounds like exactly the situation I was describing happened multiple times.......

Doesn't sound like that to me......

Sounds like if competitors didn't knock the popper down, and called for the RM, the RM did his due diligence by investigating the current condition of the popper before calibrating it, and acting accordingly.....

If the popper was shot down, there's no recourse for that....

It sounds to me like there were several instances at that match where the popper *was* shot down, but it was still determined that the popper was incorrectly set, so a reshoot was ordered, but perhaps I got some incorrect information on that point. Certainly sarge didn't indicate otherwise.

[motosapiens]

I'm still curious about under what circumstances we can require a reshoot for a popper that has been shot down. People are saying "obviously set wrong" or "broken" or things like that---how do you know it was set wrong if it is no longer set because it was shot down? How do you know it was broken before the competitor shot it down?

I don't have a problem with requiring a reshoot for range equipment failure---if I see a piece of range equipment that is broken, fallen, or set improperly during the course of fire, I'll call stop, REF, reshoot. But if I don't have any evidence of it other than a popper was difficult to shoot down, BUT it got shot down---how do you justify a reshoot?

Just because I have to fix the popper afterward doesn't mean it was an issue before. (After all, it wasn't an issue when we started, so obviously it changed over time. How do I know when it changed to actual REF? The popper fell, didn't it?)

Again: if the popper fell, how do you know it was set incorrectly? And how do you know that the "broken" aspect of the popper occurred prior to the last shooter? It fell.

The bolded part is not necessarily true. The majority of these situations I've seen have been the first squad at a local match where someone forgot to knuckle-calibrate a large popper. Especially if it's one of the last targets, it's not that unusual for a shooter to just unload the magazine on the darn thing. Shooting is fun, after all. Sometimes it falls, sometimes not, but everyone on the squad can see there's a problem, so we fix it and drive on.

Sarge's post on the previous page about forward-falling poppers sort of explains one of the possibilities, where a popper can be set in such a way that it falls reliably on the first shot, but sometimes it can also be set in such a way that it *repeatedly* takes multiple shots before the catch finally releases.

I have also seen situations where an activator cable can be set too tight by mispositioning the stick or rod that it pulls out from under a swinger (for example), or the cable could be misrouted and hook on a target stand. That cable may hold the popper up for a couple shots but eventually it still falls, and it's pretty obvious to everyone that there is a problem. Typically big matches have the placement spots carefully marked, and the ones I have worked we had the RO's setting any kind of activators to make sure it was done consistently, AND the timer RO typically stopped the shooter immediately if a problem was observed, but at a smaller match that is not always guaranteed to happen that way.

[Strick]

All the things you are describing would be noticed.....if you don't shoot the popper down. It really is a simple.concept, hit and if it stays up leave and call for calibration or knock.It down and score the stage.

The whole first squad thing at a local doesn't make sense either. You seem to know it can be a problem but wait until after you shoot to correct it. Why not step up and check beforehand?

[Thomas H]

Because there were X many threads showing on the adjustment bolt before a squad showed up and now there are only Y threads showing on the bolt???

EDIT: it probably is just me, but I see a problem with on stage CRO's/RO's making any changes to the popper(s) without calling for the RM/MD to do yet another calibration shot before allowing the match attendees to shoot that stage. IIRC, that part is left out of the rulebook.

But---when did it change? Before or after the competitor shot it down? How can you tell? And just because there are now Y threads, how do you know it is too heavy? Are you going to calibrate it?

(I agree with the comment that if an adjustment is made, it should then be calibrated before being attempted by other shooters.)

[JAFO]

They had better not stop themselves---if the calibration shot makes the popper fall, the stage will be scored as shot.

Even if a popper isn't falling and you are going to call for a calibration, you should always finish the stage first.

I have seen competitors stop themselves at locals due to a popper not falling to a solid hit in the middle of the calibration zone. Often, when there is no official calibration gun/ammo, this is assumed to be REF, a reshoot is ordered, and the popper is adjusted. I know it's not per the rules, but it happens.

I'm still curious about under what circumstances we can require a reshoot for a popper that has been shot down. People are saying "obviously set wrong" or "broken" or things like that---how do you know it was set wrong if it is no longer set because it was shot down? How do you know it was broken before the competitor shot it down?

I don't have a problem with requiring a reshoot for range equipment failure---if I see a piece of range equipment that is broken, fallen, or set improperly during the course of fire, I'll call stop, REF, reshoot. But if I don't have any evidence of it other than a popper was difficult to shoot down, BUT it got shot down---how do you justify a reshoot?

Just because I have to fix the popper afterward doesn't mean it was an issue before. (After all, it wasn't an issue when we started, so obviously it changed over time. How do I know when it changed to actual REF? The popper fell, didn't it?)

Again: if the popper fell, how do you know it was set incorrectly? And how do you know that the "broken" aspect of the popper occurred prior to the last shooter? It fell.

An example I witnessed was a match where a fairly new junior shooter hit a forward-falling popper six times until it fell rather than move on and call for a calibration. All of the hits were solid, with four of them at or above the calibration zone. The run was going to stand after examining the popper and finding nothing broken, but the shooter who had set the popper prior to the run was standing there when it was reset. He saw how it was reset and said that's not how he had set it. Turns out he had set the catch incorrectly, allowing the popper to stand itself upright against the catch instead of the catch falling out of the way. Eventually the shooter rocked the popper enough to fall forward. Granted, in that case you're trusting another shooter's word, but the junior had not had any problems knocking steel over prior to that one popper. It was called REF and he reshot the stage.

[Sarge]

RM's have always told me I could make adjustments to the nut and bolt if it seemed to be getting heavy. So I would actually be setting it a little lighter. But if it's too light and breezes keep blowing it over then I call the RM so I don't make it too heavy. In Level II matches the knuckle test won't fly too well.

[motosapiens]

All the things you are describing would be noticed.....if you don't shoot the popper down. It really is a simple.concept, hit and if it stays up leave and call for calibration or knock.It down and score the stage.

The whole first squad thing at a local doesn't make sense either. You seem to know it can be a problem but wait until after you shoot to correct it. Why not step up and check beforehand?

Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Soon I'll be perfect, and I'll remember to check the poppers on the first stage even if I didn't set it up.

It's been my experience at major matches as well as local matches that sometimes those things get noticed *even if* the popper eventually goes down. If an RO sees the cable hanging up, he can certainly call Stop, or consult with the CRO and/or RM afterwards.

[Nik Habicht]

Because there were X many threads showing on the adjustment bolt before a squad showed up and now there are only Y threads showing on the bolt???

EDIT: it probably is just me, but I see a problem with on stage CRO's/RO's making any changes to the popper(s) without calling for the RM/MD to do yet another calibration shot before allowing the match attendees to shoot that stage. IIRC, that part is left out of the rulebook.

When I play at being an RM for a match, I tell my staff that I want them to keep an eye on and manage their steel. But I also tell them that if they need to adjust it, they need to call me to calibrate it. I don't care how often I need to calibrate -- each request means I get to fire at least one more round at a match I'm not shooting.....

[Nik Habicht]

All the things you are describing would be noticed.....if you don't shoot the popper down. It really is a simple.concept, hit and if it stays up leave and call for calibration or knock.It down and score the stage.

The whole first squad thing at a local doesn't make sense either. You seem to know it can be a problem but wait until after you shoot to correct it. Why not step up and check beforehand?

Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Soon I'll be perfect, and I'll remember to check the poppers on the first stage even if I didn't set it up.

It's been my experience at major matches as well as local matches that sometimes those things get noticed *even if* the popper eventually goes down. If an RO sees the cable hanging up, he can certainly call Stop, or consult with the CRO and/or RM afterwards.

He can -- but he is likely to be scolded for stopping a competitor unnecessarily.......

If he does, he'd best be right.....

[motosapiens]

All the things you are describing would be noticed.....if you don't shoot the popper down. It really is a simple.concept, hit and if it stays up leave and call for calibration or knock.It down and score the stage.

The whole first squad thing at a local doesn't make sense either. You seem to know it can be a problem but wait until after you shoot to correct it. Why not step up and check beforehand?

Thanks for the constructive suggestion. Soon I'll be perfect, and I'll remember to check the poppers on the first stage even if I didn't set it up.

It's been my experience at major matches as well as local matches that sometimes those things get noticed *even if* the popper eventually goes down. If an RO sees the cable hanging up, he can certainly call Stop, or consult with the CRO and/or RM afterwards.

He can -- but he is likely to be scolded for stopping a competitor unnecessarily.......

If he does, he'd best be right.....

In general, you should do things right. I think we can agree on that.

[frag316]

Personally, if a stage has an activator, I look at it to see the proper setup, then I check after the rest of the squad has reset the range to ensure it's reset properly.

[motosapiens]

Yay, i get to resurrect a zombie thread. We had a b2b match (same stages, different divisions) over the weekend, and a competitor that I was running got several good hits on a forward-falling popper. I could see the popper was all the way back and just refusing to fall forward, so I stopped him, fixed the popper and ordered a reshoot. I did *not* get scolded for stopping the competitor unnecessarily. All agreed that the popper had come seriously out of adjustment.