Receiving help on the COF

[Nik Habicht]

Sarge,

how exactly will that open the door to cheating? At a major match you should have sufficient stage staff that the helper never gets far enough down range to be a problem -- in other words one of the other ROs should be stopping him.....

At a local, where staffing is usually tighter, you also see people over and over -- and as long as all reshoots need to be reported to the MD, there should exist a possibility of identifying any less than ethical individuals and dealing with them appropriately......

It has never been a secret that I believe there are unethical players in this game just like there are in any other. Practical shooters are. as a rule, great people who will help others at the drop of a hat. But, on the flip side there are many who only want one thing, to win at all costs. I know it. I have seen it. It's ugly.

Let's say a shooter has a bad run and his "buddy" knows it. What better way to get him a reshoot than to walk up and interfere with his run? What if the shooter and RO are buddies? Shooter runs out of ammo and another guy walks up and hands him ammo. RO does not intervene for this shooter but does for another shooter.

Would this be common? Of course not. But keeping people off of the COF closes all doors.

You and I are on the same page -- it's all about controlling the stage you're working.....

At a major that means having enough staff, and making a plan.....

At a local it means dealing with any knuckleheads.....

[Sarge]

At a major that means having enough staff, and making a plan.....

At a local it means dealing with any knuckleheads.....

In a nutshell........ Correct. Shenanigans seem to be more prevalent at the local level than at majors.

Damned if we aren't in agreement again!

[sperman]

....and as long as all reshoots need to be reported to the MD, there should exist a possibility of identifying any less than ethical individuals and dealing with them appropriately......

I've never heard of or experienced the MD or RM being notified in the event of a reshoot, at any level match.

[deacon12224]

....and as long as all reshoots need to be reported to the MD, there should exist a possibility of identifying any less than ethical individuals and dealing with them appropriately......

I've never heard of or experienced the MD or RM being notified in the event of a reshoot, at any level match.

I can't speak for all matches, but at the last two Nationals that I worked, we were required to notify the RM of all reshoots and the reason for it. Pretty sure I have had to do it at some Area matches as well. Certain squads have been known to paste targets early or other such nonsense in order to get their buddy a reshoot when he shoots poorly. The RM wanted to keep up with what squads are prone to reshoots and what ROs might not be policiing their stage properly causing reshoots, I.e. Poppers not set, or targets not taped. Edited March 10, 2014 by deacon12224

[ac4wordplay]

....and as long as all reshoots need to be reported to the MD, there should exist a possibility of identifying any less than ethical individuals and dealing with them appropriately......

I've never heard of or experienced the MD or RM being notified in the event of a reshoot, at any level match.

I can't speak for all matches, but at the last two Nationals that I worked, we were required to notify the RM of all reshoots and the reason for it. Pretty sure I have had to do it at some Area matches as well. Certain squads have been known to paste targets early or other such nonsense in order to get their buddy a reshoot when he shoots poorly. The RM wanted to keep up with what squads are prone to reshoots and what ROs might not be policiing their stage properly causing reshoots, I.e. Poppers not set, or targets not taped.

Yep. Not an uncommon RM requirement at the majors I've worked.

[Nik Habicht]

....and as long as all reshoots need to be reported to the MD, there should exist a possibility of identifying any less than ethical individuals and dealing with them appropriately......

I've never heard of or experienced the MD or RM being notified in the event of a reshoot, at any level match.

Really? You've clearly never worked a MASC where I've RM'd. I require my staff to notify me of all reshoots before they occur. Why? Because that way I can be aware of what's happening on the stage -- and if say a particular prop causes a problem, we can potentially devise a fix.

And if say RO interference caused one, I'll want to dig into the root cause and confirm that the RO in question has everything he needs to avoid recurrence.....

....and a few other reasons, including competitive equity.....

[kevin c]

FYI, the match where the original incident occurred is dealing with some growing pains. There were about 100 shooters on six bays on a public range where the match directors had previously been warned that they were running too long, going past the range closing time of 1600, so that they had to have the final shots fired by 1530. To that end they asked each squad to score as the COF was being shot. The expectation was that squad members would still be well back of the action. There were only the ARO as score keeper, and who was of course looking at targets, and the CRO (me, for that particular run) who was watching the shooter and the gun. Nobody was watching for overly enthusiastic green shooters eager to help out in clear violation of the rules by coming up behind the shooter and RO and sticking a loaded magazine in his hand. I'm so sorry, I just plain did not keep that possibility in mind! ;^D

If somebody wanted to cheat and help their friend with a tanked run, the easiest way is to tape a target in advance of scoring. A lot simpler and less likely to get a 10.6.1 DQ or a procedural thrown at the helper or shooter, since it's a mistake that most of us have been guilty of without the deliberate intent of cheating.

BTW, I have heard that the match in question has decided to cap the number of entries now.

In retrospect, this is more than a bit ironic to me. Scott probably remembers that there was an overly helpful squad member at the Production Nationals this year that he had to admonish to not pick up the shooters' mags until the all clear command. ;^D

Clarity and spelling edit

Edited March 11, 2014 by kevin c

[Sarge]

Limiting the number of shooters sounds like the best solution for your facility.

[sperman]

....and as long as all reshoots need to be reported to the MD, there should exist a possibility of identifying any less than ethical individuals and dealing with them appropriately......

I've never heard of or experienced the MD or RM being notified in the event of a reshoot, at any level match.

Really? You've clearly never worked a MASC where I've RM'd. I require my staff to notify me of all reshoots before they occur. Why? Because that way I can be aware of what's happening on the stage -- and if say a particular prop causes a problem, we can potentially devise a fix.

And if say RO interference caused one, I'll want to dig into the root cause and confirm that the RO in question has everything he needs to avoid recurrence.....

....and a few other reasons, including competitive equity.....

That all makes sense.

[sperman]

In retrospect, this is more than a bit ironic to me. Scott probably remembers that there was an overly helpful squad member at the Production Nationals this year that he had to admonish to not pick up the shooters mags until the all clear command. ;^D

I hoped that it came across as educating, rather than admonishing, but I'm glad the point stuck.