Nick Weidhaas Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Wasn't sure where to put this, but since this thread is still active and it was specific to a 1000 yrd 6 Creed rifle, I thought I'd add it here. My intent is to help others who are thinking of going down this road. I've got a 6 Creed from GAP a few months ago, but wanted to wait to post until I had some verifiable data and real experience with the rifle / caliber to share. I have limited experience with LR shooting, but I've wanted to explore this discipline for some time. My interest is the PRS type rifle matches. I sold off a bunch of guns I don't use and got with GAP for a new rig. Specs: (GAPS recommendation- I didn't change anything). V2 GAP action Bartlien 26" varmint contour bbl, 1:7.75 twist, with Badger FTE brake Manners T6A stock Vortex HD 5-20X50 Ebr2 Load (my first time loading LR rifle ammo. Lots of experience loading handgun and .223 ammo.) Hornady 6 Creed brass Berger 105gr Hybrid bullets H4350 Powder CCI 200 primer (all I could find). I bought a Copper Creek load development pack (5 loads at different powder charge to find accuracy node) and a box of their off the shelf load to get me going. I also went with George's (GAP owner) recommendation to start with 42gr of H4350 with the Berger at 2.810 oal. I had some issue chasing the oal not realizing the meplat (tip of bullet) can vary quite a bit in size (as much as 15 thou in my experience). In reading on SH and other sites I realized I needed to measure off the ogive for consistent OAL. The 6creed likes 20-25 thousandths of jump...I settled at 3.155 ogive which for me is a 23 thou jump. I've had consistent 1.5" groups at 300 with this rifle. Several 4 shot groups in the 3/4" range opening up with a 5th bad shot by me. The rifle looked like a shooter, but I'm limited to a 300 yard range and needed dope for longer ranges and some good instruction. I took the rifle this past weekend to train with BHTC in PA. They came highly recommended and both instrs., Freddy and Mike, are shooters first with prec. tac rifle type match experience. Covered topics regarding marksmanship, rifle set up, optics, ballistics, how to keep a data book (what pages to use and how to properly fill them out...this was really valuable), range estimation and wind calls in AM classroom. In the afternoon it was off to the range (out to 1050 yards) to zero, practice milling targets and gathering dope. Instr. were awesome and I learned a ton. They shared little tricks / short cuts along the way and answered any question. Great info! I was shooting with another guy I met at the school who was shooting a GAP 6 creed gas gun. We were a good team. His rifle dope stayed with mine until 500 yards which was where his 23" bbl gasser started to need more elevation than my 26" bolt. I was really happy with the way my GAP shot and was pumped with all the good dope and range estimation practice we were getting. On day 2 we had to pick a target from the day before for a morning cold bore shot. One shot. I had been smacking the 600 yard target with ease and was going to pick it for my cold bore. The instr. who had been working with me the day before asked me what target I was going with for cold bore and I told him. He had that disappointed you've got no balls look on his face I said you want me to shoot Xray target (1050 yards) for my cold bore? He asked, "Why are you here"? He reminded me I had good dope for that range and had a 2nd rnd hit the day before after a wind correction by my spotter. Great....no pressure. We all had to shoot one at a time. When they got to me I called Xray....go big or go home I guess. I dialed 7.8mils, locked in behind my gun and checked for wind. I had a wind flag at 800 that was barely moving. I checked the tops of the trees and had little movement. I called no wind and sent it. Spotter yelled, IMPACT!! I can't tell you how good that felt. The rest of the day the instrs worked with us to reinforce/confirm our dope and our milling / range estimation (note: they showed us how to do it with a calculator and a mil-dot master and I would alternate back and forth practicing with each). Just before lunch we had to get off our guns and the instrs. took all targets off the range and set up 10 targets at new places between 300 and 800 yards. We were told the height of each target and that we had a 1/2 hr to estimate range to each target and determine dope. I used all of the time and felt real pressure, 2nd guessing myself. You got 2 shots for each target, 10pts for 1st rnd hit and 8pts for 2nd rnd hit...miss 2nd shot and you lose 10pts. I guess this is the USMC qual course. USMC requires an 80 to pass. We needed a 60, but instr. said it was because he uses smaller targets. The 10 targets were called out at random, each shooter waiting for his turn to shoot. We had 20 sec to get on target, dial dope and send the shot. My GAP and I went 10 for 10...all first round hits......MONEY! Well between the cold bore in the morning and cleaning the qual I was on cloud 9. I couldn't have hope for more out my new rifle and the instruction from BHTC. Didn't write this to say look what at I did....I just wanted to share a great shooting experience and how happy I was with my GAP 6 Creed and Vortex Optic. The 6 Creed is really flat. I was off by as much as 50 yards on a few targets I milled, but it wasn't an issue. I'm only running it at 3065fps...low accuracy node. Guys are running them over 3150 with even better results. Some matches have a 3150fps velocity cap, so I wanted to stay under it anyway. Also didn't want to shoot a super hot load...easier on brass and barrel. Hope this helps anyone thinking GAP or 6 Creed. Also recommend BHTC in PA for rifle training. Here are a few pics: Shoot well!! Nick- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Nick- that is a great write up! I'm glad things went so well for you. I know it makes you feel good when a project comes together. I'm struggling with a 6.5CM upper that just doesn't want to get along. Very inconsistent groups. It gives me bursts of hope putting three or four bullets into one hole, then throwing the next two or three fliers somewhere into left field. Did a careful barrel break in today, and spent four hours at the range with it today. I was using varget with Lapua 123 gr bullets in new Hornady brass. To keep every thing consistent, every charge was individually measured. I went to a lot of work on this project and it did not leave me warm and fuzzy today. I will be picking up some h4350 tomorrow to try. I know that is the go to powder with this combo, but I couldn't find any last week. What was the biggest eye opener was when I shot better groups with my AR15 at 200 yds. 55gr MG over H335 with pickup brass loaded on a Dillon 650. Taking it to the 700 yd range on Wed with a PRS style match this Sat. If I don't figure it out, y'all watch out, I'll be flinging bullets some where on Sat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Weidhaas Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Nick- that is a great write up! I'm glad things went so well for you. I know it makes you feel good when a project comes together. I'm struggling with a 6.5CM upper that just doesn't want to get along. Very inconsistent groups. It gives me bursts of hope putting three or four bullets into one hole, then throwing the next two or three fliers somewhere into left field. Did a careful barrel break in today, and spent four hours at the range with it today. I was using varget with Lapua 123 gr bullets in new Hornady brass. To keep every thing consistent, every charge was individually measured. I went to a lot of work on this project and it did not leave me warm and fuzzy today. I will be picking up some h4350 tomorrow to try. I know that is the go to powder with this combo, but I couldn't find any last week. What was the biggest eye opener was when I shot better groups with my AR15 at 200 yds. 55gr MG over H335 with pickup brass loaded on a Dillon 650. Taking it to the 700 yd range on Wed with a PRS style match this Sat. If I don't figure it out, y'all watch out, I'll be flinging bullets some where on Sat! Just a thought- try not cleaning your barrel. I know this is sacrelig and I was always a barrel break in and clean after shoot guy, but the Instructors at course I attended were adamant about not cleaning your barrel until the rifle doesn't shoot anymore. They explained in detail that a seasoned barrel will shoot more consistently than one that is cleaned after being shot. When the barrel is cleaned, the poi and group size consistency often changes and needs multiple rounds (sometimes 20+) to get it shooting well again. They also thought barrel break-in was bullshit. Tested by both instrs- with no determined value for break-in process. Worth a try before you chuck it in the river Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Thanks Nick. Great information. Steve, that isn't good to hear. I hope you can get that sorted out this week!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 The first shot after cleaning was always a good bit high. Then two or three or four into one hole, then a couple oddball uncalled fliers. Could not establish anything consistent except the high first shot. I know there are a lot of different thoughts on barrel break in. I'll be giving it a good workout on Wed, so I'll test your theory. Michael if you hear a lot of cussin' coming from over near Sanford on Sat, I'll make you a deal on an upper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Ok, this barrel likes to do it dirty.....when clean it just sort of casually shoots and gets tighter and tighter. By the 10th shot I'm hitting pasters consistently at 200 yds. Got good dope to 580 yds. Have a little computer work to do to get the dope on out to distance for the match on Sat, but I feel better about it today. One thing is for sure, it's not getting cleaned for a while! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 Ok, this barrel likes to do it dirty.....when clean it just sort of casually shoots and gets tighter and tighter. By the 10th shot I'm hitting pasters consistently at 200 yds. Got good dope to 580 yds. Have a little computer work to do to get the dope on out to distance for the match on Sat, but I feel better about it today. One thing is for sure, it's not getting cleaned for a while! It's a big relief that you got that sorted out! I'm very happy for you. Looking forward to a positive range report this weekend! Good luck, brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Weidhaas Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Ok, this barrel likes to do it dirty.....when clean it just sort of casually shoots and gets tighter and tighter. By the 10th shot I'm hitting pasters consistently at 200 yds. Got good dope to 580 yds. Have a little computer work to do to get the dope on out to distance for the match on Sat, but I feel better about it today. One thing is for sure, it's not getting cleaned for a while! Looks like you got yourself a dirty girl . Glad it wokred out. It goes against my grain to not clean a barrel, but I found the same thing you did. When I went to the LR school last week I used the "Shooter" Ipone app to get me close. It was within a tenth of a mil out to 475, but it put me high at 500. For example shooter called for 2.1 mils for 500 yards, but I only needed 1.6 mils. Shooter called for 7.8 mils for 1050 yard dope and that was dead nuts. The apps are cool and a great tool, but you gotta confirm on target. Edited June 12, 2014 by Nick Weidhaas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 When I got home I confirmed my data with JBM, and our stuff was very close. I wish I could have run it out farther, but I feel fortunate to be able to shoot 580 at a friends farm. It's a good friend of mine, but I also have to be careful not to wear out that situation. I'm glad the data with JBM is so close. Only about a crosshairs thickness at distance. I know it's not the best idea to jump into a match with a rifle you bought last week and have little time with, but what the heck, I have a score to settle with the shingled roof at Woody's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I suggest that you start with a Solid .308 Heavy varmint rifle and a good Leupold scope. Remington, WIN and Savage all make good guns. The Remington will give you more options down the road as far as a custom gun goes. Shoot that .308 barrel out, or when you think you need a better rifle you will be ready for a 6.5 CM or even better a 6.5x284. There is a separate class in a lot of these games for .308 guns so you are not really competing with the 6.5CM guys etc. Load up some Sierra 155 2156's and see if they shoot. If they don't work try the Sierra 175's. The Lapuas are even better. Get 100 pieces of Lapua .308 brass, some powder and go to town. Your going to need, or have access to a chronograph too, your will need 50 FPS or less ES for 600 yds or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 308 is ok if you all ready have one, but to go out and buy one for this game would be swimming upstream. Leupold is behind the curve also for PRS style matches. Most of the matches that I've been to and looked at do not have separate classes. 6.5x284 is a great long range cartridge, but takes a good bit more powder to get just a little more velocity than a 260 or CM. Don't really need to spend the extra money or put up with the extra recoil over a 200 round big match. I have only been to a couple matches so far, and before this, I thought I could shoot. This is the hardest thing I've ever done with a gun, and what I've learned is, this stuff is hard enough with out starting out with inferior equipment. Why is it that everybody says "buy once, cry once." And then tells you to go out and buy a 308? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinsonbeach Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 First listen to this whole cartoon…… Then buy whatever bolt gun you like in any of the short action calibers and shoot the barrel out. That was freekin' great!!! Thank you... -jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troupe Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Michael, I hope the smith that you were speaking of is Joel Pendergraft. Joel is a stand up guy and does great work. He has a lot of experience in the 6 creed. I have known Joel for more than 25 years and would vouch for him anywhere, plus he is in Chapel Hill. It just makes sense to spend money in Chapel Hill on gun related items, LOL. I just spoke with Joel today and he is finishing a 6 Creed gas gun. Tommy Roupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alita Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Silly n00bie question about 6.5 creedmoors in general. Since the case is based off of 308 win am I correct in assuming that an AR-10 setup in 308 win would only require an upper change to go with 6.5 creedmoor? Same lower same mags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 That is correct. Mags and every thing are the same as the .308. For those of you that have been following my tears, I never got the CM figured out, UNTILL I swapped scopes. But, how could the Bushnell be bad? It was almost new, always babied and taken care of. It was just bad luck that it took a dump at the same time that I switched rifles with it. I put an 18x Leupold on it and the first group went .209". Shot 9 more groups and the worst was just over an inch. Most were under an inch with some of them being itty bitty. After 350 rounds of load dev, 4 different powders, 3 different bullets, all the bald spots from pulling my hair out, sleepless nights, beating the wife and dog, it was the NEW freakin scope. Now I have a match in three weeks with a target dot and knobs, and no range finding abilities. Better get on the phone with Bushnell..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alita Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 The only scope I own is a Leupold mk6, she is a thing of beauty and I do not do that scope justice... yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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