Thomas H Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 My original understanding of the steel targets in SC was that all targets should face straight forward, instead of being angled toward the shooter. This was (to my understanding) such that the spatter from the targets would always be directed parallel to the backstop, instead of (potentially) back uprange. Take the stop plate for 5-To-Go, for example. If facing forward, then there would obviously be spatter from any shot on it---but that would be in the direction of the side berm. If the plate was faced toward the shooter, some lead spatter would end up going uprange, even fairly sharply uprange. ...yet a couple of days ago, I saw a video from a large SC match (a national match, I believe) where the 5-To-Go plate was[/]i pointed at the shooter (Sevigny was shooting) and BJ Norris said that was a normal thing. He also said that a couple of of the other plates were normally faced toward the shooter. So---is my understanding incorrect? I want to make sure we are setting up our SC stages correctly. Do the plates face the shooter? Always? Never? Sometimes? If sometimes, in what cases are they angled to the shooter? (I tried searching for this topic, but apparently my search-fu is weak. Either that, or this is something that "everyone already knows" so no one has needed to discuss it before.) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjordan78 Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Great question. I would love to hear from someone in the know as well for our matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) I've wondered this myself as I've seen them arranged differently I suppose this is one of those grey areas that falls under this (quoted from the SCSA rulebook) "Layout of stages- All course designs and measurements are approximate with slight variations possible." To me that gives the MD the latitude to cant the steel in the direction he/she feels is most safe for the shooters. Edited to add: At our club steel is sometimes angled towards the shooter. I found a picture on my phone of how Smoke and Hope was setup recently so I'm attaching it so you can see how we do it. Edited February 15, 2014 by ZackJones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCringleberry Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 The targets should be facing the shooter. The reason is that most SC targets intentionally have a 15 degree downward angle and that is supposed to ensure that the fragments go toward the ground. If you are striking the plate perpendicular, in theory, this works. In reality, there is some fragmentation and a slight amount will come back but not usually towards the shooter. When you create acute angles away from the shooter, it causes more fragmentation to angle off to the left and right versus more of it going downward. My source for this is from some of the manufacturers and from running/shooting these matches for over five years. I hope this helps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 The targets should be facing the shooter. I should probably specify---does anyone know what SC's official ruling is regarding the steel setup, with regard to facing the shooter? I understand what McC is saying, but that doesn't mean that the SC setup actually follows that. (For example, I've read the physics behind it, and I've been shooting this for awhile also---but I don't know how it is officially done.) I can ask SC HQ (which I'm going to do) but thought I'd see if anyone had heard/read/seen any official statement about it. For example, I can see from SC Nats videos that the targets aren't always directly facing the shooter. But (for example, the stop plate in 5-To-Go) sometimes they are. If the targets are always facing the shooter, that results in a fairly significant advantage over the entire match compared to them always facing directly forward. I'd like to make sure that our shooters are shooting the setup the way it would be at much larger matches. (Yes, I know there will be variations.) Anyone ever hear anything official about how it should be set up? Or has it been relatively random over time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinsr98 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Great question. At our monthly matches, we DO NOT face the targets toward the shooter. However, I have heard that they do at the national level. I would like to know for sure since our range is hosting the State Match this year. Tagged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 At the original range in Piru, where the match was originated.........the plates are angled towards the shooter. On Five to go the stop plate is at an angle so when you shoot at it it is flat to you. The right angle goes into the bern for any splatter. You should shoot directly on to steel targets for best results, but if you have good steel it won't be that big of a deal.... DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I've sent an email to DNROI asking about positioning and included the photo I posted above. I'll post the response once I get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Here's the response I received: "The setup looks fine*, the thing to watch for is that it is set as square as possible to the back stop so that all splatter will fall within the side berms and misses into the back stop. If the plates are on post with springs to allow the plate to angle forward, the splatter usually goes down." *The setup of Smoke and Hope from post #3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 Here's the response I received: "The setup looks fine*, the thing to watch for is that it is set as square as possible to the back stop so that all splatter will fall within the side berms and misses into the back stop. If the plates are on post with springs to allow the plate to angle forward, the splatter usually goes down." *The setup of Smoke and Hope from post #3. [sigh] So that doesn't really help, does it? We can set them angled, but yet we are supposed to set them up as square as possible to the back stop, except that some plates at Nats are definitely NOT set up square to the back (quite the contrary) and DougC tells us that Piru used to angle everything.... Well, bleh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaosshooter00 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have shot and run these matches for a while now, and we set up as it is shown on the layout paperwork, all targets facing parallel to the bay mouth. I have seen and shot it with it angled to the shooter and figured it to be laziness or shooters looking for unfair advantages. Great question and hopefully useful to more than that are posting on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 We get a ton more back frags if we don't face the plates to the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [sigh] So that doesn't really help, does it? We can set them angled, but yet we are supposed to set them up as square as possible to the back stop, except that some plates at Nats are definitely NOT set up square to the back (quite the contrary) and DougC tells us that Piru used to angle everything.... It will help me when it comes to setting up the steel for the matches in the future. I'll do my best to set them up the way they're supposed to be setup but also recognize that deviations from what's published in the book are also acceptable. It would be interesting to setup Smoke and Hope with targets straight and again angled to see if there's any time difference. If we have enough steel to setup both stages like that I may do that soon just to see if it does make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share Posted February 18, 2014 [sigh] So that doesn't really help, does it? We can set them angled, but yet we are supposed to set them up as square as possible to the back stop, except that some plates at Nats are definitely NOT set up square to the back (quite the contrary) and DougC tells us that Piru used to angle everything.... It will help me when it comes to setting up the steel for the matches in the future. I'll do my best to set them up the way they're supposed to be setup but also recognize that deviations from what's published in the book are also acceptable. It would be interesting to setup Smoke and Hope with targets straight and again angled to see if there's any time difference. If we have enough steel to setup both stages like that I may do that soon just to see if it does make a difference. I'm betting that it will---with the targets facing straight forward, the shooter will have only 83.24% of the facing area that they would have had if the targets had been angled toward them for the outer two plates. (The inner two having 97.78% of the facing area.) That's going to make a difference. Similarly for other stages---take the left- and right-most targets on Speed Option. Or that right-most plate on Five To Go. Angling them toward the shooter is going to make a difference. Outer Limits and Showdown, not so much. But even in something like Accelerator, having the front left plate flat forward instead of being turned toward the shooter is going to reduce the facing area by 7%. The math geek in me couldn't handle it, so I ran some numbers really quickly, based on the angle that the shooter sees of the target: You can see that the outer plates on Smoke & Hope and the rightmost plate on Five To Go actually have pretty serious differences. Far right plate in Speed Option and the left plate in Accelerator also. (The right near plate in Roundabout and the left plate in Five To Go are both over 5% change, too.) I'm thinking that I'd really like to know if I should be angling (at bare minimum) the plates in S&H and the far right plate in Five To Go. (And perhaps the side plates in Speed Option and the left plate in Accelerator.) Over 10% less facing area to shoot? Yeah, that's important, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 When I train I always set up the stages with the plates parallel ... I'm shooting the US Steel Nationals next month for the first time and was debating about whether to go shoot a practice day before hand .... You all just made up my mind for me .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Do us a favor and take some photos of the stages please. I'd love to see how they are setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 Do us a favor and take some photos of the stages please. I'd love to see how they are setup. Most definitely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornetx40 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 That's the problem when it's not specifically in the rules. It is then up to the match director....then you see different setups at different ranges. This is one of those items that is corrected very easy with one sentence in the rules for target setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 That's the problem when it's not specifically in the rules. It is then up to the match director....then you see different setups at different ranges. This is one of those items that is corrected very easy with one sentence in the rules for target setup. Agreed but given how it's 2014 and the rules on the steel challenge web site show "tentative for 2013" it's not likely we'll see any updates soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) Since I couldn't leave it alone, I went ahead and ran the numbers on the left- and right-most plates on all the stages. Anything over 5% difference is highlighted in red---the ones over 10% are highlighted and in bold. Looking at this, I'm thinking that if people face any plates toward the shooter, it should at least be the stop plate on Five To Go and the outer rectangular plates on Smoke & Hope. For the others---I'd really like to know how they set them up at the SC Nationals. I'd be tempted to turn the plates down through the 5% point (arbitrarily)---but I don't want to do it if it doesn't happen at larger matches. Matter of fact, I don't want to turn ANY if they don't turn them at larger matches. But I'm thinking that if they turn any (which they apparently do), it'll at least be the top two, so I'm going to start doing those at local matches. (edited because I apparently can't spell) Edited March 4, 2014 by Thomas H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178595&page=7#entry2129985 Pictures of targets from the Nationals. Clearly Smoke & Hope is not parallel to the backstop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 not sure if they used any specific methodology to orient the plates at the Nationals I just shot but as my pics show, all plates are 'square' to the shooter. Orientation to the shooting bay berm was clearly not a factor ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 not sure if they used any specific methodology to orient the plates at the Nationals I just shot but as my pics show, all plates are 'square' to the shooter. Orientation to the shooting bay berm was clearly not a factor ... Appreciate the pictures and commentary! Well, guess that tells what I should be doing at local matches. P:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcmunson Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 My inquiry to USPSA yielded this response. --------------------------------------------------- Hi Pierre, The stages should be setup as indicated in the rules, parallel to the shooting box which is parallel to the back stop. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted April 6, 2014 Author Share Posted April 6, 2014 My inquiry to USPSA yielded this response. --------------------------------------------------- Hi Pierre, The stages should be setup as indicated in the rules, parallel to the shooting box which is parallel to the back stop. John Well that's outstanding. I wonder what he'd say if we sent him an email with pictures of this years Nationals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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