Can you have more targets than you're required to shoot?

[bikerburgess]

I don't see how you can have more targets on the COF than you are required to shoot.

9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

Suppose, for example, the stage briefing said "select any 3 of the 6 targets as the scoring targets and engage the scoring targets with 2 rounds each." Suppose further that the competitor does just that, and engages 3 of the six targets with 2 rounds each. Why couldn't the 3 non-selected targets be considered as something other than a "scoring target," rendering 9.5.7 and 10.2.7 inapplicable?

I don't think you could do that but you could have multiple target arrays, that each shooter would engage before going down range to score. the key would be all the arrays would need to be the same.

Mike

[bikerburgess]

It would be one of those stages I'd walk up to and think "WHAT THE ....? Must have been an open shooter who designed this stage!"

If it was up to me, I'd get rid of points 1-8 on page i entirely since it appears not everybody pays attention to it. Coupled with that, "practical" is not defined in the back of the rulebook.

But, that's just like my opinion, maaannn.

If I recall correctly the fastest time on that stage was by a limited shooter and 7 of the top 10 were iron sighted. I think this stage in "practical" terms was all about getting over the mental block about the target being too far away, but actually not being that hard to hit when you try.

Mike

[whitedog]

Chuck, you are correct. And I meant no disrespect. But the facts remain that the vast encounters are well inside 20 yards. That's FBI data..not just Mr. Cooper. I'm in for 50 yard shots...I think it would tip the field toward accuracy and not just speed.

A 50 yard activator target that trips a swinger at 5 yards...interesting?

[JAFO]

I don't see the point of allowing the shooter to pick 3 of 6 targets, when you have to reset the stage for the next competitor anyway. If you don't, and try to force the next shooter to take the remaining 3 targets, you have not presented the same stage choices to both shooters. If you really want to make the shooter choose, make all 6 disappearing targets and have them activated/presented in such a way that shooters will only be able to pick one or the other.

ETA:

For some reason, when I click the Quote button, the post I wanted to quote isn't appearing. I was replying specifically to the post by austex.

Edited December 13, 2013 by JAFO

[Flexmoney]

I've had one police academy instructor and one SWAT cop tell me they are still taught it's still "three to fives":

Three to five shots fired

Three to five yards

And over in three to five seconds

...and IPSee will get ya killed in da street.

Claude Warner (member here) just pinned an article were he examined actually data, which kinda contradicts commonly repeated training/lore. Worth a read:

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/what-fbi-statistics-really-say-about-gunfights/

[Flexmoney]

It would be one of those stages I'd walk up to and think "WHAT THE ....? Must have been an open shooter who designed this stage!"

I often see the opposite bias. Stage designers tend to design to their comfort zone and division capacity. I see a lot of open targets at <8y. But, run and gun is fun too.

Variety.

[gose]

It would be nice if targets like MGM Auto-poppers were legal for USPSA.

They are. Just call it a multigun match.

A multigun stage can have 1-3 guns, so have a multigun match with 8 1-gun stages

[whitedog]

Good read Flex. Thanks.

[cas]

IMO, shooting at a target at 50 yards with a pistol is not practical .

LMAO. That reminds me of the people who never shoot any farther than 7 or 10 yards. When asked about it the says "Statistics show most gun fights happen within...." I hope they never get in a real shoot out. "Excuse me sir, please stop shooting or come closer! statistically speaking you're too far away."

By "practical" do you mean Very easy? Boring?

[Flatland Shooter]

It would be nice if targets like MGM Auto-poppers were legal for USPSA.

They are. Just call it a multigun match.

A multigun stage can have 1-3 guns, so have a multigun match with 8 1-gun stages

That would work well for any match that has trouble getting volunteers to help set up. An eight stage match where each stage consists of one Auto-Popper.

Maybe the next month some will help set up (or stay home).

[Chills1994]

IMO, shooting at a target at 50 yards with a pistol is not practical .

LMAO. That reminds me of the people who never shoot any farther than 7 or 10 yards. When asked about it the says "Statistics show most gun fights happen within...." I hope they never get in a real shoot out. "Excuse me sir, please stop shooting or come closer! statistically speaking you're too far away."

By "practical" do you mean Very easy? Boring?

No, I mean this:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/practical?s=t

prac·ti·cal [prak-ti-kuhl] Show IPA

adjective

1.

of or pertaining to practice or action: practical mathematics.

2.

consisting of, involving, or resulting from practice or action: a practical application of a rule.

3.

of, pertaining to, or concerned with ordinary activities, business, or work: practical affairs.

4.

adapted or designed for actual use; useful: practical instructions.

5.

engaged or experienced in actual practice or work: a practical politician.

[Craig N]

Had a stage with a 75 yard shot....optional to run up to 50 yards and I should have ......... with a big square steel target or 2. I think it was 18x24, might have been 24x24 not sure but all yeah had to was ring em.

[gng4life]

Had a stage with a 75 yard shot....optional to run up to 50 yards and I should have ......... with a big square steel target or 2. I think it was 18x24, might have been 24x24 not sure but all yeah had to was ring em.

If that was a USPSA match, steel must fall to score.

[gose]

It would be nice if targets like MGM Auto-poppers were legal for USPSA.

They are. Just call it a multigun match.

A multigun stage can have 1-3 guns, so have a multigun match with 8 1-gun stages

That would work well for any match that has trouble getting volunteers to help set up. An eight stage match where each stage consists of one Auto-Popper.

Maybe the next month some will help set up (or stay home).

1 gun, not 1 target.

Dont think there's anything in the rules that prevents you from arranging a multigun match but not use all three guns.

[sperman]

Had a stage with a 75 yard shot....optional to run up to 50 yards and I should have ......... with a big square steel target or 2. I think it was 18x24, might have been 24x24 not sure but all yeah had to was ring em.

If that was a USPSA match, steel must fall to score.

And the targets described aren't legal, even if they did fall.

[Flexmoney]

Good read Flex. Thanks.

Here is a video that might fit as well:

[whitedog]

Nice flex. I was taught the same in the military...I was amazed at what distance I could hit with a 1911. Although that was 21 years ago. ?

Think at Campbell we were center punching at 75 about 90% of the time. With 30-40 year old guns.

[cas]

IMO, shooting at a target at 50 yards with a pistol is not practical .

LMAO. That reminds me of the people who never shoot any farther than 7 or 10 yards. When asked about it the says "Statistics show most gun fights happen within...." I hope they never get in a real shoot out. "Excuse me sir, please stop shooting or come closer! statistically speaking you're too far away."

By "practical" do you mean Very easy? Boring?

No, I mean this:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/practical?s=t

prac·ti·cal

[prak-ti-kuhl[/size]] Show IPA

adjective[/size]

1.

of or pertaining to practice or action: practical mathematics.

2.

consisting of, involving, or resulting from practice or action: a practical application of a rule.

3.

of, pertaining to, or concerned with ordinary activities, business, or work: practical affairs.

4.

adapted or designed for actual use; useful: practical instructions.

5.

engaged or experienced in actual practice or work: a practical politician.

So how many gun fights did you get in today? How 'bout this week? You know, in your ordinary activities?

If there are 40 yard classifiers, I don't see 10 yards farther as being unreasonable.

[sperman]

There are several 50 yard classifiers.

[Graham Smith]

Back to the paper target question. If I follow, the question is if it's legal to have a stage with non-disappearing targets and a description along the lines of "engage any 5 targets" when there are 10 targets out there.

I'd be curious if that was legal and also whether or not all the targets had to be identical. For example, could there be 5 targets at 10' with everything except the A zone blacked out and 5 targets at 50' with nothing blacked out?

[sperman]

Can you find anything in the rulebook that says it's legal?

[bikerburgess]

Back to the paper target question. If I follow, the question is if it's legal to have a stage with non-disappearing targets and a description along the lines of "engage any 5 targets" when there are 10 targets out there.

I'd be curious if that was legal and also whether or not all the targets had to be identical. For example, could there be 5 targets at 10' with everything except the A zone blacked out and 5 targets at 50' with nothing blacked out?

I don't think you can do that in a comstock stage but if you make it a fixed time stage with a short enough time that the shooters really need to choose what they are going to engage then you can make them choose. the hard part is getting the risk/reward ratio similar on both sets of targets so there is not one clear choice.

Mike

[austex]

Can you find anything in the rulebook that says it's legal?

Does anything say it's illegal?

[sperman]

I think 9.5.7 covers it.

[austex]

I think 9.5.7 covers it.

Seems to beg the question. Under Graham's scenario, why couldn't 5 of the targets be scoring targets, and the other 5 nonscoring targets? Rule 9.5.7 doesn't appear to preclude that.