Things I learned at my first match330

[Rocky Patel]

Let me first start by telling you why i'm writing this. I spent months researching the AR. Never had any real experience with one but wanted to get into 3-gun. I started to get obsessed with the build and absolutely all the right parts. Weight, length, This part over that part. Front heavy, rear heavy. etc. You hear people say just get an AR and go shoot a few matches before worrying about exactly the right parts and what to buy etc... I'm one of those that analyzes everything to the infinite degree. (job hazard in IT)(Girlfriend hates it too)(She never wants to hear my analysis of what she did wrong)(go figure)

Shot my first match at the Creekside Tactical Rifle Match this past Saturday. Use my 16" lightweight with 15" Midwest Industries SS gen2 free float,and A2 stock. Was trying to get some balance. Tried the Magpul CTR but it was front heavy. With the A2(I just happen to have) it was more balanced. I also learned or maybe its my opinion. The balance should be between the grip and my support hand. Doesn't really seem that the stock has as much to do with balance as I thought. When I got home I put the Magpul CTR stock back on and shouldered the rifle. Actually not bad if you are holding the gun properly. Not too much difference between the a2 and CTR. Slight difference. I now like the CTR better. (Just happen to also be what I had at home)

What I realized:

- The weight make little difference to me. Heavy or light. My problem is "That's was my first rifle match". LIghter or heavier would have made absolutely no difference.

- So much to learn before little things like weight will make any difference. I'm assuming it's not so heavy that your arms and shoulders are not sore from just using it. Other than that any rifle is fine just about.

Things to practice with any rifle:(Things I learned I need to work on from that match)

- Learn proper shooting stances. Get good with several. Make sure you can hold zero in those stance as best you can. Get STEADY! be prepared for crazy shit. Shooting while the rifle is in a hanging noose. Shooting keeping the gun at a 90 degree to the ground. Beware of the 90 on a table and your bolt catch button. Had issues with my rifle turning into a bolt action after every shot on that table. Had to charge it every shot. Fellow shooters diagnosed it as, i had pressure on the button slowing the bolt carrier down. Thus not cycling like it should. I think a BAD lever could be even worse.

- Learn the game and the method of scoring. 1 in A or 2 anywhere. Or B zone, C zone, D zone = added time. It makes a difference. Learn the game.

- Get reloads under control with good form.

- Figure out what to do with your support hand. Where to grip . How to grip, etc. Find what works best for YOUR follow up shots.

- OH.... A BIG ONE FOR ME: Learn your hold overs. At all distances. You know how almost impossible it was for me to hit a small 3 inch by 3 inch square at like 2 feet?? While zeroed at 100. Holy shit almost impossible unless you were willing to take 10 shots to walk it in there.. 9 of which was in the no shoot zone.. that hurt. But I learned where to hold it right there in the match.. Obviously I wasn't in the running for the championship. So I used the match to further my research. Hurt my score but helped my game.

I think the round count was like 130-150 or so. I went through over 250 rounds. Sometimes sending lead downrange just to FEEEL more. Lots of learning. And a few gracious Re-shoots from very cool ROs that knew this was my first match. And buying a mulligan for my worst stage. (Long distance)

Bottom line, forget the gun. Get an AR. Learn the above stuff first(I'm sure there's a million more things but that was hit home for me on that first match). Worry about the gun later.

I could have borrowed a top shooters rifle all decked out and it have made ZERO difference. Unless someone has smart bullets and the rifle came with a top shooter that looks like me.

Thanks guys for care listening to my brain dumps... It also helps me remember if I can share what I learned.

Please correct me if anything is off or you have another opinion. Love to hear anyones input.

Rocky

[poortrader]

Mechanical offset

[Bryan 45]

Bottom line, forget the gun. Get an AR. Learn [to shoot].

Rocky

I paraphrased it a bit for you.

You're fortunate in that you have at least figured this out early. It's great advice, and in my opinion, this isn't just advice for the new shooter either. I've seen a lot of shooters at both local and major matches that have the fanciest pieces of gear, the newest gadgets that can be bolted to picatinny, scopes with 15 different illumination settings, reticles w/ hold-overs, hold-unders, etc. But gear is no replacement for practice and just knowing how to shoot.

Good luck w/ your second match!

Edited November 13, 2013 by Bryan 45

[Rocky Patel]

Bottom line, forget the gun. Get an AR. Learn [to shoot].

Rocky

I paraphrased it a bit for you.

You're fortunate in that you have at least figured this out early. It's great advice, and in my opinion, this isn't just advice for the new shooter either. I've seen a lot of shooters at both local and major matches that have the fanciest pieces of gear, the newest gadgets that can be bolted to picatinny, scopes with 15 different illumination settings, reticles w/ hold-overs, hold-unders, etc. But gear is no replacement for practice and just knowing how to shoot.

Good luck w/ your second match!

Thanks. I'm definitely in for the long haul. This is just the start. Can't wait to see my progress through this next year. Thanks for the luck. Will need it too...

[Rocky Patel]

Mechanical offset

Interesting reply. May I ask a beginner question? What's a mechanical offset? Hmmm..................... secondary iron sights? 45 degree offset?

[Airedale]

Mechanical offset

Interesting reply. May I ask a beginner question? What's a mechanical offset? Hmmm..................... secondary iron sights? 45 degree offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore. On close targets, you must adjust your point of aim to compensate for the "mechanical offset" lest your rounds hit low.

Dave

[Rocky Patel]

Mechanical offset

Interesting reply. May I ask a beginner question? What's a mechanical offset? Hmmm..................... secondary iron sights? 45 degree offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore. On close targets, you must adjust your point of aim to compensate for the "mechanical offset" lest your rounds hit low.

Dave

Let me see if I understand..Aim approx 2 9/16 above where you normally would. Straight out the barrel there is no time to for the bullet to rise. So when it leaves the barrel it's approx 2 9/16 low from the start. If the bullet were to travel eventually at 100 yards it would make it up there but initially the mechanical offset, is what it is. The distance between the center of the bore and the sight. Thanks. Seems so logical to have eluded me till now.

The buzzer has a tendency to initiate brain lock up.

Love to hear if you liked the Old world reserve.. I re-posted this here because it started to veer off the accessories topic. Thought it would be more appropriate in this forum.

R

[Airedale]

Mechanical offset

Interesting reply. May I ask a beginner question? What's a mechanical offset? Hmmm..................... secondary iron sights? 45 degree offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore. On close targets, you must adjust your point of aim to compensate for the "mechanical offset" lest your rounds hit low.

Dave

Let me see if I understand..Aim approx 2 9/16 above where you normally would. Straight out the barrel there is no time to for the bullet to rise. So when it leaves the barrel it's approx 2 9/16 low from the start. If the bullet were to travel eventually at 100 yards it would make it up there but initially the mechanical offset, is what it is. The distance between the center of the bore and the sight. Thanks. Seems so logical to have eluded me till now.

The buzzer has a tendency to initiate brain lock up.

Love to hear if you liked the Old world reserve.. I re-posted this here because it started to veer off the accessories topic. Thought it would be more appropriate in this forum.

R

Yes-the simplest visual, for me, was to place the barrel against a target, then look through the sights/scope and see the point of aim.

A target head shot will really show you the difference.

Dave

[CJW]

As pointed out, mechanical offset is the physical distance between your barrel bore and your sight (reticle); depending on the exact scope and mount, it is somewhere between 2.5" and 3" on just about any AR. At the muzzle, that would be the distance between your point-of-aim (POA) and point-of-impact (POI)—the shot will hit that far below your aiming point. Now, if you have a 50yd zero, then at 50yds POA = POI, no problem. The mechanical offset affects the shot between your muzzle and the zero distance. Ballistics means that it is not a linear change.

So, for my rifle, with a fairly tall mechanical offset of 2.75" and a 50yd zero, I shoot just over an inch low at 25yds. For me, that means if I have, say, a headshot around 25yds I put the reticle on the top edge of the target. At the extreme end, I just shot a USPSA match with a 9mm carbine with no offset irons, just a 2.75" high red dot, and it had a stage with absolutely in-your-face head shots, To get USPSA Alphas at, like, 2–3 yards with that set up, I was putting the dot about an inch above the target to hit the eyebox at that distance.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Mechanical offset

What's a mechanical offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore.

Straight out the barrel there is no time to for the bullet to rise.

I know you realize this, but just to bust your chops a little - "bullets NEVER rise". They start dropping the second they leave the barrel.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Hi-Power Jack

[chevyoneton]

Mechanical offset

What's a mechanical offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore.

Straight out the barrel there is no time to for the bullet to rise.

I know you realize this, but just to bust your chops a little - "bullets NEVER rise". They start dropping the second they leave the barrel.

I argued this for years with a (older) good friend who refused to understand this most basic concept. His only arguement was "that is not what the picture on the back of the box of cartridges shows".

[johnsons1480]

Mechanical offset

What's a mechanical offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore.

Straight out the barrel there is no time to for the bullet to rise.

I know you realize this, but just to bust your chops a little - "bullets NEVER rise". They start dropping the second they leave the barrel.

I argued this for years with a (older) good friend who refused to understand this most basic concept. His only arguement was "that is not what the picture on the back of the box of cartridges shows".

It never rises in relation to the bore axis, but it can and does rise in relation to the ground. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to have a 100/300 zero. So it really just depends on what you mean when you say it's rising.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Mechanical offset

What's a mechanical offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore.

Straight out the barrel there is no time to for the bullet to rise.

I know you realize this, but just to bust your chops a little - "bullets NEVER rise". They start dropping the second they leave the barrel.

It never rises in relation to the bore axis, but it can and does rise in relation to the ground.

Bullet rises relative to the ground IFF the barrel is pointing up - not if it's pointing level or down. If the barrel is parallel to the ground, it doesn't rise at all, ever.

[Rocky Patel]

Mechanical offset

What's a mechanical offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore.

Straight out the barrel there is no time to for the bullet to rise.

I know you realize this, but just to bust your chops a little - "bullets NEVER rise". They start dropping the second they leave the barrel.

I argued this for years with a (older) good friend who refused to understand this most basic concept. His only arguement was "that is not what the picture on the back of the box of cartridges shows".

Thank you for the clarification. Barrel has a slight angle up. Is that correct? so bullet is travelling straight out of the barrel but gaining altitude because of the initial angle of the barrel. Only to lose velocity and start dropping because of gravity and such. Seems to rise but not on it's own. It's just going straight out (Happens to be upward) but up then down.

If I seem a little to wordy it's only because I LOVE these conversations and restating helps me and may help others. I can talk shooting all day everyday. There's so much to learn and you guys seem to be the only people who want to hear it and entertain my thoughts. Girlfriend definitely doesn't. And no one else outside the community know anything of what I'm talking about.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Mechanical offset

What's a mechanical offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore.

Straight out the barrel there is no time to for the bullet to rise.

I know you realize this, but just to bust your chops a little - "bullets NEVER rise". They start dropping the second they leave the barrel.

Barrel has a slight angle up. Is that correct? so bullet is travelling straight out of the barrel but gaining altitude because of the initial angle of the barrel

Almost. We're getting there. If the Barrel is parallel with the ground When The Gun Goes Off (thought I'd forego any discussion of the effect of recoil , the bullet comes out of the barrel parallel to the ground.

The bullet Never rises. It continues parallel to the ground, and then starts to drop - it Never Rises, relative to the barrel.

If you point the barrel up, the bullet will follow that line until it starts to drop.

When we look thru a scope, we've mounted it and adjusted it so that we are elevating our bore so the bullet passes thru the point of aim twice, at two different distances. That's where the confusion lies - it appears that the bullet has "gone up", but it didn't - just passed thru the poa twice. I know we're Off Topic here, but you say you love a good discussion.

[Rocky Patel]

Mechanical offset

What's a mechanical offset?

The sights or scope on an AR set about 2 9/16" above the center of the bore.

Straight out the barrel there is no time to for the bullet to rise.

I know you realize this, but just to bust your chops a little - "bullets NEVER rise". They start dropping the second they leave the barrel.

Barrel has a slight angle up. Is that correct? so bullet is travelling straight out of the barrel but gaining altitude because of the initial angle of the barrel

Almost. We're getting there. If the Barrel is parallel with the ground When The Gun Goes Off (thought I'd forego any discussion of the effect of recoil , the bullet comes out of the barrel parallel to the ground.

The bullet Never rises. It continues parallel to the ground, and then starts to drop - it Never Rises, relative to the barrel.

If you point the barrel up, the bullet will follow that line until it starts to drop.

When we look thru a scope, we've mounted it and adjusted it so that we are elevating our bore so the bullet passes thru the point of aim twice, at two different distances. That's where the confusion lies - it appears that the bullet has "gone up", but it didn't - just passed thru the poa twice. I know we're Off Topic here, but you say you love a good discussion.

I sure do love a good discussion. And yes. I now understand. Good way of taking everything out of the equation except the barrel and the bullet. It makes it more clear. Your point is very will taken. The bullet is just going straight relative to the barrel angle to the ground . Saying it rises is just misleading. It's not a plane with any wings to create lift. it's essentially a symmetrical rock sorta speak going in the direction it was launched..... For some time before falling to earth. Or hitting your target.

And it's not too far off topic. These thought came from my first match. And you gracious people are helping me( and others) understand what it is I experienced that led me to these posts.

R

Call me sponge Bob. I'll soak it up as much as I can.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I believe you've already earned your spot here - you've made a very nice contribution in your original

posting.

Welcome aboard - looking forward to learning more from you in the future.

[Dan Sierpina]

A bullet starts to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel. Gravity is almost as reliable as taxes are.

A good visual is look at photos of artillery, the barrel is always pointed upward.

[Rocky Patel]

I believe you've already earned your spot here - you've made a very nice contribution in your original

posting.

Welcome aboard - looking forward to learning more from you in the future.

[Therealkoop]

Pew pew

Edited November 16, 2013 by Therealkoop

[Jesse Tischauser]

Dang dude that's quite a break down after the first match. It took me like two years to figure all that stuff out.

[Jensey]

I'm wanting to get into 3 gun and am looking at AR's now. Great post on the first match. Where do you shoot? I'm about 2.5 hrs from Atlanta and exploring where the great 3 gun matches are around here. So much to learn about shooting rifles. And I haven't even broached the subject of shotguns yet. I shoot USPSA but 3 gun looks so fun!!

[Rocky Patel]

I'm wanting to get into 3 gun and am looking at AR's now. Great post on the first match. Where do you shoot? I'm about 2.5 hrs from Atlanta and exploring where the great 3 gun matches are around here. So much to learn about shooting rifles. And I haven't even broached the subject of shotguns yet. I shoot USPSA but 3 gun looks so fun!!

Welcome! to your newest future addiction.

I'm sorta in your same boat. I actually have never shot a real 3-gun match myself. That rifle match was just rifle. I've shot 2 gun matches with Pistol and Shotgun and a bunch of just pistol but not all 3 together YET. . I couldn't find a 3 gun match close by to get my feet wet with out driving 6 hours or so. However coming in Jan my good friend Paul is starting up Atlanta's first dedicated 3 gun monthly.

Here's an excerpt from ATL3Gun on Facebook.

Atlanta 3-Gun is an organization dedicated to the promotion of 3-Gun competition hosted at South River Gun Club in Conyers, GA on the 3rd Sunday of every month.

Website

http://www.atlanta3gun.com

Their face book page is Atlanta 3 gun

I'm very excited to to have a monthly match that's local. Great was to sharpen/learn your skills and not cost an arm and a leg taking days off, renting motels, etc, etc, etc...

I am quite sure I can speak for Paul and say "Come out and shoot with us, we'd love to have you." Seems to be the mantra of most in the community.

Don't worry too much about your gear. What you don't have, I'm sure there's someone that can/will share theirs with you or if you let us know ahead of time someone can bring a spare whatever.. I borrowed a shotgun the 2 times I shot a pistol/shotgun match.

If you ask me the shotgun is the hardest everything. From which one to buy to how to load fast not to mention is the heaviest . It's probably best to not buy one till you get out there and shoot/borrow a few. TRUST ME!

Also in NC I know there is: (Pulled from Atl 3 Gun Facebook)

WHERE: Durham Pistol and Rifle Club, Mebane, NC

LINK: http://tarheel3gun.com/

Keep in tough and I'll try to fill you in on matches as I hear about them. This coming year I'm planning to dive in head first. So I plan on going to as many as I can find within 10 hours of here or so.

I'm also Rocky Patel on face book.

Rocky

[Rocky Patel]

Dang dude that's quite a break down after the first match. It took me like two years to figure all that stuff out.

Thank you sir . Now to actually get good at it. Can talk the talk. Now gotta learn to walk the walk.... I'm hoping all my studying will speed up the walking thing to RUN the RUN..

BTW: But in 2 years your were top 5. I've figured this much out and it made me also top 5....................................If you flip the list upside down.

R