usmc90 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Let me start with i work on no-ones but my own !! But i do know one who is doing smithing work from home without the license (But is a class 01 FFL) ..is this legal is my question..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agney5 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Conversations had with an ATF agent essentially consisted of if you are not making a living smithing you are ok. Obviously you would want that on paper from the ATF and I'm not a lawyer but if you are doing it as side work essentially as a hobby I don't see the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agney5 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Also where are you in central Il always trying to support local business especially if a shooter as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc90 Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Also where are you in central Il always trying to support local business especially if a shooter as well. Hi Agney5, I'm 15 minutes outside of peoria..As i do also but not real local for you but we do a very nice being competitvley priced..So we do get alot of out-of-towners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc90 Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Aslo thank you for all the replys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agney5 Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I'm actually from Shelbyville, and currently have a guy in my gunsmithing program from your area. I'll have to tell him about your business for him to check out.<br /><br />Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk<br /><br /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc90 Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) If you read the GCA (Gun Control Act) the key phrase is "In the act of doing business..." if you are making money then you are in the act of doing business and will need a FFL. If you are a hobbyist there is no need but the GCA if fairly clear in this. Where the gray area lies is when you manufacture from scratch a receiver. This is allowed and they say you can even transfer a few of them a year (Non class 3).But how many and can you sell them is the gray area. The GCA can be found on the BATFE website. The other issue is liability. Insurance would be a must if doing this as a business so your guy that is an FFL and working on guns hopefully has a hefty liability policy. Edited November 9, 2013 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 (edited) Let me start with i work on no-ones but my own !! But i do know one who is doing smithing work from home without the license (But is a class 01 FFL) ..is this legal is my question..?Sounds like a mega lawsuit waiting to happen.... when I fixed guns for my friends, I absolutely never took a dime to make sure it was just a favor, never a business. Edited November 9, 2013 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc90 Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 He is an engineer by day..home machinist by nite..lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernGunsLLC Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Let me start with i work on no-ones but my own !! But i do know one who is doing smithing work from home without the license (But is a class 01 FFL) ..is this legal is my question..? Im not following here. You state that he does not have the license but that he is an 01 FFL...which is a perfectly fine license for gunsmithing. He just cant manufacture his own guns without an 07 FFL. Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc90 Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 Yeah, I figured out that nothing special was needed license wise (except the 07 class) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 The next challenge is the legal difference between what is "gunsmithing" and what is "manufacturing." I've heard that a common pistol smithing task is actually regarded as the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 alot depends on how the work is being done. Lets take an AR15 for instance as its probibally the most common type of gun for this to occur with. Example 1 Dealer buys lowers, uppers and all the parts and assembles a gun from those parts and sells it in his shop as custom AR15s. That is manufacturing as he is assembling them for sale from parts he bought for that purpose. Example 2. Customer brings in the bag of parts he collected to build an ar15 then decided he had no clue what he was doing and brings it in to the smith to assemble. That is gun smithing. If he is simply working on guns etc then that is considered gunsmithing and is fine on his 01 license. Its when he starts buying the parts to build his guns to sell than he becomes a manufacture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 ATF has change their definitions of what manufacturing is, some are absurd and others are a stretch. You buy a rifle that comes with no sights and you install iron sights/scope, you just manufactured. You buy a mil-spec and add a few upgrades as in grip safety-magwell- sights- trigger ... any of those is manufacturing. A company that does new finish work is a manufacture. Adding value is basically manufacturing. ATF is moving in the direction that if you are a gunsmith you will need an 07 Manufacturing license. If the customer supplies the receiver/gun what ever you do to it isn't manufacturing. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakshow10mm Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 OK, the GCA states "livelihood and profit", but the FOPA defines what "livelihood and profit" is. Look there. Even a part time basis is considered for livelihood and profit. An 01 is a dealer in firearms or gunsmith. An 07 is a manufacturer of firearms and can also do everything than an 01 FFL can. If you read the now removed list of examples of manufacturing there is one common theme that the ATF has as a litmus. Anything done to a firearm, frame, or receiver prior to selling to a 4473 customer or to another FFL, is manufacturing. If done after a 4473 transfer, it's gunsmithing. There is a difference between you making something to sell and you making something out of a customer's gun he already owns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 (edited) http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/pdf/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44.pdf "(10) The term ‘‘manufacturer’’ means any per son engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term ‘‘licensed manufac turer’’ means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter. (11) The term ‘‘dealer’’ means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, B. any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or © any person who is a pawnbroker. The term ‘‘licensed dealer’’ means any dealer who is licensed under the pro visions of this chapter." http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html "Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is: 1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them), 2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and 3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms." http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2013-title27-vol3/xml/CFR-2013-title27-vol3-sec478-11.xml (d) Gunsmith. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; Edited November 11, 2013 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc90 Posted November 11, 2013 Author Share Posted November 11, 2013 Good info here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cohete Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I attended an ATF seminar where this was explained. What I understood: If you buy a frame from a licensed dealer plus all the components to assemble a firearm, you can assembled the firearm, and sell it as a private sale. Similar to buying a complete gun and selling it later as a private sale. However, if you are buying the components, and building (assembling) a complete gun, you fall into the "manufacturing of firearms" and must collect a 10 percent tax from the buyer. HOWEVER... you do not have to pay the tax if you build less than 50 guns in a year. Once you hit the 50 number, you have to pay the 10% tax on the sale of all 50 guns you built on that given year. Most people or small corporations who do this, stop at 49 guns per year so they do not have to charge the buyer for the 10% tax, and and do not have to pay the manufacturing tax to the ATF. This is how I understood it. If that particular gun was not working correctly, I imagine that you could repair it as long as you did not charge for the repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e5gator Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Huge load off my mind. thanks for the post StraitUp. I do work like this on occasion but this is by no means my primary source of income and if it was for a living, I would have been dead a long time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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