3 Gun Nation Outlaw Matches?

[kurtm]

That is even wellerer played!!!!! And now for a heart felt Yee Haw for Dressy Jesse!

[MarkCO]

If Peter's interest in peaks has been piqued, perhaps he should take a peek at Pike's peak, eh?

There is a Pike's Peak Shotgun match in May. We won't be shooting any pizza boxes, but we will moving slug targets and I WON'T be dancing.

[kellyn]

As someone who is not new to shooting but new to 3Gun I see it differently. I have read every post on every page and think that 75% are nit-picking. I did not know about 3 gun shooting until I watched an episode of 3GN. I read the book that Mr. Adams put out and learned about the "Outlaw" matches, what defined them and how they started. Watching the episode of 3GN peaked my interest and caused me to research matches that were local to me where I could get my feet wet. I shoot local $20-60 matches and love them. I will be shooting my first "major matches" in 2014, matches that are within driving distance and work constraint perameters. I understood "Outlaw" matches to be any match that did not follow the IDPA or USPSA rules or guidelines (that's how most of the "Outlaw" matches started right?). Seems like every local match adapts or disregards formal rules depending on their own situation barring safety in mind. With that being said there are a lot of people with their "panties in a bunch" over the word Outlaw, which seems to apply to the 3GN regional matchs since they are not following IDPA or USPSA. Is it that big of an issue since the term Outlaw is not copy righted or trademarked from individual matches that started in the 80's? Just wondering.

P.S. I spell checked my stuff so I don't see misspelled words quoted.

Excellent post. I think that 3 Gun Nation is good for gun ownership, the shooting sports and for 3 gun. BUT as you said, you are new to the sport which has a fairly lengthy and diverse history.

Much of the "nitpicking" and "panties in a bunch" has to do with real philosophical differences about how 3 gun matches should be conducted. Target choice is an excellent example. I completely understand why 3 Gun Nation choose to use the much-maligned "pizza box" target. There are excellent arguments for doing so (as with the IPSC Classic target). That being said, I prefer matches that don't use such targets.

Practical shooting will never be "politically correct" and I think efforts to make it more so are ultimately self-defeating. But I recognize that the use of IDPA/Metric IPSC target or God forbid the VTAC target will likely preclude the sport from wider TV coverage.

Much of the angst expressed in this thread has to do with 1) the unmooring of 3 gun from its (as Richard Bhella has so aptly put it) "martial roots" and 2) the rise of a new breed of "pro" shooter. I will leave 2) alone except to say that increased TV coverage and pay outs does have an impact on how many people behave. It's simply the nature of the beast. As for 1), 3 Gun Nation and its ilk leads us down the road to European style IPSC, a kinder gentler form of practical shooting. I, for one, like European style IPSC, having shot it several times. I, for one, also much prefer "Merica!" style outlaw 3 gun. 3 Gun is certainly not "combat training" or "paramilitary training" but many us keep one foot tangled back in those "martial roots."

So when 3 Gun Nation tries to adopt the outlaw mantle, it's naturally going to get some blowback. "Outlaw" was a moniker for non-USPSA 3 gun. It has also come to symbolize a sort of "bad boy" status, something which 3 Gun Nation is both trying to adopt and tame. Again, this causes blowback.

[Sterling White]

A new classic!

[AFH]

Thank you Kelly!! Well said.

[ClutchUSMC]

Nicely said Kelly.

I don't get the hatred of the targets? I used to work with guns, and I've been in a few gunfights, there is nothing tactical about 3gun to begin with. Some of the same principles apply but it's not nearly the same. I shoot competitions to test my skills with firearms and I like 3gun because it gives the widest variation of challenges. From flying birds and slugs to rifle at 2 ft and 500 yards etc, but I could care less what the targets look like. They could be bottle caps, teddy bears, or pictures of hitler for all I care. As long as they are the same for everyone.

Do you guys really think shooting a piece of cardboard with a "head" on it makes you a better gunfighter or some how makes the ability to take aimed shots at speed from awkward positions makes you any more less relevant, read practical, in a gunfight than if the target is shaped like a pizza box?

I get that I haven't been around as long nor am I nearly as good of a shooter as some of you guys. However, I like anyone that puts on more matches for me to shoot. Gets more people involved in the sport. Which attracts more sponsors. That feed those organizations and thus the cycle continues.

There seems to be a very small minority of shooters, albeit a very vocal minority, that wants to keep doing things one way or the other. I don't pretend to understand their motives but I question why the must tell everyone with a different idea how wrong they are or why they way is stupid. Isn't that the very definition of outlaw? Doing things your own way?

I for one like all types of matches and try to get to as many as I can. I might jokingly complain about Andy's style because I'm fat and out of shape, but I still show up and shoot it. I am well aware that there are other things I could be doing on those weekends but still love shooting guns with my friends. What I don't do is go to the blue ridge match announcement thread and tell him all the ways he's wrong. Complain about his targertry or stage design, etc. I knew what I was getting into when I signed up for the match and no one is forcing me to compete.

The same principle applies with 3 Gun Nation or USPSA or IDPA or any one else that decides to spend their time and money putting on a match. If all you want to shoot is rifle matches in Zimbabwe with 100% strobe indicating targets then feel free. But there is no reason to scold the rest of us for having a good time turning money into noise.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

WHOA WHOA WHOA.......I specifically remember your comments about telling your dad you were shooting IDPA!

As for the rest...more matches = more better, some of us just have to pick and choose where we can spend our money to go. A little criticism isn't a bad thing. If one guys criticizes why he wants to go to a different match, and he is the only one to do so...oh well. If tons of people bring up the same point and match attendance begins to drop, then the issue may need to be addressed. The problems with match criticism, and the points made earlier, were that criticism isn't welcome....and is met with rabid opposition many times. I loved shooting Blue Ridge, even as a fat-ish guy. The paper scoring wasn't my favorite way to do things, but I had fun when I stopped caring about that....and my scores were better.

As for the 3GunNation regional matches...they look to be major matches with major match prize tables. Question for working stiffs like myself would be...is it going to be better than the Pro-Am? If it isn't, is a shot at the Pro series (an afternoon's drive from me btw) worth changing my plans from one match to another that would be further away? For me, matches are fun regardless, prize tables were slim compared to last year (my only two years shooting btw, and first year shooting where I might take more than a small bottle of oil home), and I can only take so much time off work. If I had the skills to be in the Pro Series I would...they are two day matches within a short drive from home where I wouldn't have to take work off. I don't have those skills yet! I would be a little interested in visiting a match to watch and learn a little is spectators are allowed, or if they are paying RO's to come down (food/hotel).

As for targets, who cares. My first targets on my range were bowling pins, a street plate stolen from a city building that was cut into 14" squares, and clay pigeons on cheap walmart clay holders. Pizza boxes would suffice fine.for me sinc eI've been known to shoot boxes for fans, pizza, tonka cars,.....

My only maintained "complaint" about 3GN is that I wish the divisional series was still being run as is. I was looking forward to shooting some matches in Heavy Optics to see where I landed with more seasoned shooters.

[Sterling White]

Thank you Kelly!! Well said.

He went to school for that...

[Tim/GA]

So when 3 Gun Nation tries to adopt the outlaw mantle, it's naturally going to get some blowback. "Outlaw" was a moniker for non-USPSA 3 gun. It has also come to symbolize a sort of "bad boy" status, something which 3 Gun Nation is both trying to adopt and tame. Again, this causes blowback.

So that is what this is all about! Thanks, I got lost about 8 pages ago and could not figure out was going on.

I was particularly interested in this thread since I am part of a group looking to start a 3GN club series club locally AND being in the Southeast we can use more major matches. Neither my time in the Army or now as a high school teacher leave me time during the "normal" match season to travel far- basically I manage to get 2 days off to make the Rockcastle/AR15 ProAm each year. Being able to offer a local/club level match with tie-ins to major matches is great for us.

Oh yeah, not to enter the fray but I had to do a bit of research and find just where anyone from 3GN tried to "take over" or even use the Outlaw name. Only place I saw the term outlaw used at all was here

"3-Gun Nation is proud to announce the advent of yet another new competition series—the 3-Gun Nation (3GN) Regional Championships. Part 3GN Pro Series, part natural-terrain/outlaw-inspired stage design, the 3GN Regional matches will comprise everything one can expect to see in the sport of 3-gun."

Pretty thin! Now, back to wading through the pages to see if I missed anything.

[TRUBL]

Wading thru 12 pages of thread.....wow!!!

Outlaw matches?.....that's easy......it's been come to be known that ANY 3 gun match that was not run under a formal set of rules, set up by and run by a FORMAL organization. AT that time, it was meant to be USPSA, but the door was left open as we all knew that some day IDPA would develop something too. OR...that someone was gonna come in and set up a formal organization....IE: 3 Gun Nation.

Oh yes, maybe there was IMGA.....but that was really never formalized. SOF...sure, but that was BEFORE people started calling these matches OUTLAW. As for the rules of any OUTLAW 3 gun....pretty much all the same, but there are differences and I'm not going in to that. BTW....most of the 3 gun rules that you guys all use came out of the SOF and IMGA, and to some extent....USPSA too.

SOOOOooooo......based on what I'm seeing, what I've lived thru and seen over the last 20 or so years; are any of the 3GN matches outlaw? Nope. Can they be OUTLAW inspired? Sure. HECK....even USPSA multi gun matches (not to be confused with USPSA 3 gun matches) are OUTLAW inspired.....but they are not OUTLAW matches. USPSA, pretty much saw that they were not the leaders in that game....and needed to change.

I wish 3 Gun Nation good luck in their endeavors!!!....they seem to be doing just fine so far.

Tim

Edited November 18, 2013 by TRUBL

[gose]

Outlaw matches?.....that's easy......it's been come to be known that ANY 3 gun match that was not run under a formal set of rules, set up by and run by a FORMAL organization. AT that time, it was meant to be USPSA, but the door was left open as we all knew that some day IDPA would develop something too. OR...that someone was gonna come in and set up a formal organization....IE: 3 Gun Nation.

Hmm, since 3GN is a formal organization and will eventually have a formalized set of rules, would a "3 GN Outlaw" match then mean a match that doesnt run under 3GN rules?

[Flexmoney]

WOW,

Hard to believe the Moderator has not shut down this personal back and forth stuff between Kurt and Jessie!.

Well, I was reading this thread for entertainment but now it's making me sick.

That about covers it. - Admin.

Closed.