New rules practical questions...

[Tindjin]

Odd title, I know. We just finished the New Mexico State comp and were the 2nd or third large competition that used the new rules. I was a primary SO for one of our stages that actually had in a couple functions of the new rules.

* No shooting on the move

* No reloading on the move

* Extended Range cover

* Some angles during movement/shooting where the 180 rule could come into play.

Over all we are getting really good feedback from the match so far. Feedback on some of the rules, once you have to shoot them when they are being enforced is something else though. People are really not liking the no shooting or reloading on the move. Extended range cover is confusing people (and makes cover calls a real pain in the ass).

We had only 2 DQs I believe, one for "finger" violation, twice on same scenario and one for a 180 break.

Don't mean for this to be a discussion on the rules themselves (been done to death) but if anyone has any questions on how things were implemented or how, as an SO, we had to deal with them please speak up.

[prk]

is shooting on the move now not allowed?

[steel1212]

Ummm I'm pretty sure I can still shoot on the move.

[prk]

I'm pretty sure you can still shoot on the move too - here's all that I found

3.6. When cover is available, it must be used when shooting, unless the shooter starts in the open and must

engage targets while on the way to cover. Shooters may not cross any opening (doorways, windows, open

spaces, etc.) without first engaging targets as required by the stage description.

3.6.1. If the shooter fires a shot out of cover, prior to being given a cover warning, then the following

applies:

3.6.1.1. A PE is assessed

3.6.1.2. The SO should Not call "Cover" after the shot has been fired.

3.6.1.3. Rationale: The shooter has already earned the PE since the shooter broke the shot before the SO

could provide the courtesy cover warning. Once the PE has been earned, if the SO subsequently calls

cover, then the shooter is in effect being penalized twice, once for shooting out of cover, and then by

Comment [G14]: Stage

description may specify from

which positions of cover a

target must be engaged due to

limited equipment. E.G.

walls, barrels etc.

Comment [TT15]: Rationa

le: the shooter has already

earned the PE since the

shooter broke the shot before

the SO could provide the

courtesy cover warning. Once

the PE has been earned, if the

SO subsequently calls cover,

then the shooter is in effect

being penalized twice, once

for shooting out of cover, and

then by taking the time to

move back into cover.

However, an inadvertent or

delayed cover warning by the

SO, subsequent to the shot

firing, does NOT invalidate

the PE assessment. taking the time to move back into cover. However, an inadvertent or delayed cover warning by the SO,

subsequent to the shot firing, does NOT invalidate the PE assessment nor does it necessitate a re-shoot.

[chuck s]

Just shot the GA state match with plenty of shooting on the move stages. They did adhere to the new rule book. Using cover itself seemed pretty much like always from the shooters prospective . The flat footed reloads took away a lot of the fun and strategy however.

[prk]

IDPA is a game and according to their principles a shooting game based on self defense strategies using " practical " equipment. I myself do not like the new flat footed reload rule but it's there - so we have to learn to live with it or take the PE. What I find amusing is that all the gamers are using XDM 5.25's , G34's , M&P 5" Pro's, 5" 1911's -- when is the last time you saw someone carrying one of these as their carry weapon? I will never carry my 5" 43oz 1911 - I'm lucky if I strap on my Kahr P9 Covert at 14oz. I admit it - I'm a gamer, I use anything that I think will give me an advantage because at the end of it all everyone is checking their scores to see how they did against everybody else - it's in our nature to be competitive. Maybe what IDPA needs is a " gamer " or open division with a different set of rules - just throwin it out there!

[Tindjin]

Under current (new) rules you can only shoot while moving if you start the stage "in the open" and fire while moving to your first point of cover. At no other point in the stage can you move and shoot at the same time. We had one stage that was written under the old rules and had to be modified because of this change and that came from our regional director. I'm hoping the rule for shooting and reloading on the move changes, it does change the flow of a lot of types of stages. The wording, "when cover is available" at the beginning of the rule is causing a ton of confusion. The only way other than beginning in the open is if you had some type of target that revealed itself while you were moving, like a drop turn or pop-up so that way it wasn't behind cover. It's this kind of thing that is causing a bunch of frustration with shooters that didn't need to happen with the new rules.

[Steve Koski]

Tin - You SO's did a real good job. Many thanks.

[Tindjin]

Glad you enjoyed it Steve. We tried to make it fun and challenging while trying to get used to the new rules.

[Kool Aid]

NM was a great match. I got a P for a reload with "both feet off the ground" - I started to leave cover on a reload, then quickly came back six inches to finish. Not only did I get the P, I wasted time coming back to cover. Should have just blazed through the stages taking the penalties as they came. My class was won by a shooter with 5 Procedural penalties, and it has me rethinking my IDPA game plan going forward.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Kool Aid

[BillR1]

Another thumbs-up for the NM match! I thought you guys (and lady) did a great job with the new rules.

[Agent #1911]

IDPA is a game and according to their principles a shooting game based on self defense strategies using " practical " equipment. I myself do not like the new flat footed reload rule but it's there - so we have to learn to live with it or take the PE. What I find amusing is that all the gamers are using XDM 5.25's , G34's , M&P 5" Pro's, 5" 1911's -- when is the last time you saw someone carrying one of these as their carry weapon? I will never carry my 5" 43oz 1911 - I'm lucky if I strap on my Kahr P9 Covert at 14oz. I admit it - I'm a gamer, I use anything that I think will give me an advantage because at the end of it all everyone is checking their scores to see how they did against everybody else - it's in our nature to be competitive. Maybe what IDPA needs is a " gamer " or open division with a different set of rules - just throwin it out there!

those "gamers" are fully complying well within the rules. the rulebook does not state you "MUST" use your concealed carry pistol of choice. its a game with a timer and score sheet based on speed and hits. not a self defense course.

[Forrest Halley]

What I find amusing is that all the gamers are using XDM 5.25's , G34's , M&P 5" Pro's, 5" 1911's -- when is the last time you saw someone carrying one of these as their carry weapon? I will never carry my 5" 43oz 1911 - I'm lucky if I strap on my Kahr P9 Covert at 14oz. I admit it - I'm a gamer, I use anything that I think will give me an advantage

The real question that needs asking is: Will the Tomasie Custom be ESP legal when it comes out? It most certainly should be! The slide cuts are factory modifications just as the G34 and XD 5.25....if not that's clear manufacturer favoritism. Who cares about what's practical anymore? Slide lightening is slide lightening, no matter who does it, factory or aftermarket. Good for the goose, good for the gander...right?

[Kool Aid]

New Mexico had 54 ESP shooters and 35 SSP, the first time I've seen ESP outnumber SSP at any match. Maybe its just a New Mexico thing since Georgia had 84 ESP and 105 SSP. Nevertheless, my crew is starting to look like team STI/ESP since the new rules and tougher SSP classification standards went in place. Gotta admit I get a good laugh when someone calls my 5" M&P a race gun.

[prk]

Yep - IDPA is a "game" - it's a game with a timer and score sheet based on speed and hits. not a self defense course.

That's why given the choice of shooting a stage with a 3.8" , 4.5" or 5.25" gun -- 99% would choose the 5.25" -- why because you wanna kick Joe Schmoo's ass - that's why!

The problem is some of these rule changes that they " supposedly " consulted with the Navy Seal's for real world strategies - are just plain dumb IMO

Real world - who cares if you drop a loaded mag on the ground , I also think they are penalizing the accomplished shooters who can reload on the move ( you know the crossovers from that other shooting sport ). It seems to me , IDPA is catering to a crowd that is less athletically inclined or mobility challenged. I enjoy all the action shooting disciplines USPSA , IDPA , Steel. It's just that I'm enjoying IDPA less and less - and I don't think it's just me from all the flak about the flat footed reload.

Also on a side note - the Tomasie Custom does look SWEET! I was lucky enough to shoot on the Super Squad with Travis, Max and the gang for one of the big matches. Max had his SIG 1911 MAX - but I have yet to see one in person except the one he had in his hand. I hate it when the manufacturer's tempt us with future models that only exist on the internet -- I'm still waiting on SIG's 1911 Traditional Match Elite in .40S&W and 9MM

[IceCold4x4]

IDPA is a game and according to their principles a shooting game based on self defense strategies using " practical " equipment. I myself do not like the new flat footed reload rule but it's there - so we have to learn to live with it or take the PE. What I find amusing is that all the gamers are using XDM 5.25's , G34's , M&P 5" Pro's, 5" 1911's -- when is the last time you saw someone carrying one of these as their carry weapon? I will never carry my 5" 43oz 1911 - I'm lucky if I strap on my Kahr P9 Covert at 14oz. I admit it - I'm a gamer, I use anything that I think will give me an advantage because at the end of it all everyone is checking their scores to see how they did against everybody else - it's in our nature to be competitive. Maybe what IDPA needs is a " gamer " or open division with a different set of rules - just throwin it out there!

I carry my Sig x5 on an almost daily basis. Don't carry at work unless I'm on the road in the truck but other than that I do my best. The Lanes will confirm that it's with me 90 percent of the time, and general carry two spare Mags. Not to say that my astra a75 doesn't also get some Duty when extra concealment is necessary. Hell I carried the sig for 4 months with a red dot on it. Gamer gun or not, I carry what I train with.

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Edited October 31, 2013 by IceCold4x4

[prk]

Ice - that SIG X5 is SWEET! But I'm guessing the majority maybe even 98% of the CCW does not or will not carry a Full size 36oz - 48oz gun. I'm in FL - shorts and shirts almost all year -- It's hard to carry anything larger than a pea shooter and a real man wouldn't be caught dead with a murse ( man purse )! But we are drifting off topic - so I say again

I DO NOT LIKE THE FLAT FOOTED RELOAD RULE OR THE NO SHOOTING ON THE MOVE RULE

[IceCold4x4]

Prk I'm in Alabama so ya bit being a bigger guy about 6ft and 250 lbs let's me get away with a bit more. Hell I never notice the weight. The width and length of the grip dictates concealability and I also hate those two rules. My bigger problem is not being able to drop a mag that maybe empty but yet retain one in the chamber.

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