Can´t "fix" the TS in .40 S&W!

[jayjay1]

Hey guys,

first of all, I love this pistol very much, to be honest, it is now my fourth CZ (with Shadow Line, Shadow Viper and CZ 97 Sport).

I normally have no problem with "hardballing" ammo, shooting them without any issue out of my .45, for example, but the .40 S&W kicks much harder in my opinion.

My real problem is, that I loose my grip with every shot fired with the TS.

The short but hard "kickback" turns the pistol a bit to the right and up in my hands, so that I have to search my grip again, shot by shot.

So I need to much time to get my sights back on target and am able to fire the next round.

Absolutely inacceptable for IPSC.

I tried to hold the pistol harder, but it didn´t work.

The thin alu-grips are mounted, because I hoped to get a better control.

What can I do?

Edited October 10, 2013 by jayjay1

[kneelingatlas]

How big are your hands? I've found the stock rubber grips from the SP01 on my TS fill my hand nicely and give me the most control (my open hand measures 10" between the tip of the pinkie and tip of the thumb).

What about a thumb rest?:

Are you using the stock plastic mag well? A bigger mag well provides leverage for your support hand to counter the muzzle flip:

What weight bullets are you shooting? 200gr with a fast powder is a pretty soft shooting round.

Finally there's the CoC!:

When you have monster grip strength you will control the pistol better without consciously trying to grip it hard.

Edited October 10, 2013 by kneelingatlas

[All-Gator]

jayjay,

If I understand correctly, you do not have difficulties loosing your grip with the smaller frame Shadow or the larger frame CZ97. Perhaps you should begin with a complete and thorough analysis/comparison of your grip on the different pistols. Pay particular attention to what you are doing with your off-hand (the left hand for right-handed shooters.) BTW, the off-hand actually should grip the pistol more strongly than the strong-hand...a 60/40 grip distribution is a common recommendation. Kneelingatlas's recommendation of a thicker/softer grip panel also should assist in this matter. (I've used a thin grip on the strong-hand side and a thick grip on the off-hand side on several pistols with some success.)

As Kneelingatlas indicated there are other factors than the grip itself: Lighter bullets require more powder to make major. This produces more muzzle flip and a sharper feeling recoil. Using heavier bullets will most often give less muzzle flip a slower/softer feel to the recoil. (However, using a faster (not slower) powder with the heavier bullets is what produces the slower/softer feel. Compare the bullet weight(s) of the 45's with which you shoot and the weight(s) of your 40's. BTW, I assume that you reload...if not, following this advice would be difficult. Also, what strength recoil spring/hammer spring are you using? Weaker springs contribute to the flip/sharper recoil.

If by any chance, you are into weight lifting then doing curls in a "hammer" position of the hands would help with the specific muscles that control the pistol. Actually, using a hammer would be great...so, go drive some nails. With the off-hand!

I hope these suggestions are helpful.

A-G

[jayjay1]

Kneelingatlas:

You are a real win in this forum, competent, friendly and helpful.

You make this forum to a better one, I highly appreciate this, thanky ou!

:bow:

Ok, btt., let´s see.

My hands are mid-size, 10" like yours.

I do have the original wooden for the TS, the thin alu (like the one on the picture in the middle), original Shadow grips, Hogue finger rubber grips (like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Hogue-Rubber-Wraparound-Finger-Grooves/dp/B000S5SCPM ).

I didn´t know, that the Shadow grips will fit, do they without modification?

Thumb rest, hum, not until now, in my opinion they don´t belong to a pistol, but maybe I´m an idiot sometimes...

On the other hand: my right hand is my strong one, the pistol turns to the right, so - am I´m wrong? - the thumb rest on the left side won´t help?!

Original plastic Magwell, yes sir.

In the moment I use 180gr. bullets, but do have some 200gr. here (ARES).

Which powder would you recommend?

An issue is the short OAL, for the heavier bullets, what makes me think about reaming the barrel a little (0,2 - 0,3").

Monster grip strength?

Well, I´m not faint, really not, but there is a little left to Mr. Universe.

What are those two pieces of metall in your hands?

Other grips and a softer load might be the easiest way for me.

Best regards from Germany,

Jay

[Torogi]

Have you tried pro grip? Its a lotion that will leave a white grippy residue on your hand. Or the prince brand tennis players use.

In terms of grip, if you are right handed, your left hand is your strong hand=)

[NoSteel]

Pulling to the right sounds to me like your gripping much too hard with the right hand (I'm assuming strong hand). Your grip tension should come from your weak hand which can be difficult to train yourself to as the natural tendencies can be to grip harder with your strong hand. It's something I myself do and struggle to correct. Others can chime in and how best to determine if this could attribute to what your seeing.....

[jayjay1]

jayjay,

If I understand correctly, you do not have difficulties loosing your grip with the smaller frame Shadow or the larger frame CZ97. Perhaps you should begin with a complete and thorough analysis/comparison of your grip on the different pistols. Pay particular attention to what you are doing with your off-hand (the left hand for right-handed shooters.) BTW, the off-hand actually should grip the pistol more strongly than the strong-hand...a 60/40 grip distribution is a common recommendation. Kneelingatlas's recommendation of a thicker/softer grip panel also should assist in this matter. (I've used a thin grip on the strong-hand side and a thick grip on the off-hand side on several pistols with some success.)

As Kneelingatlas indicated there are other factors than the grip itself: Lighter bullets require more powder to make major. This produces more muzzle flip and a sharper feeling recoil. Using heavier bullets will most often give less muzzle flip a slower/softer feel to the recoil. (However, using a faster (not slower) powder with the heavier bullets is what produces the slower/softer feel. Compare the bullet weight(s) of the 45's with which you shoot and the weight(s) of your 40's. BTW, I assume that you reload...if not, following this advice would be difficult. Also, what strength recoil spring/hammer spring are you using? Weaker springs contribute to the flip/sharper recoil.

If by any chance, you are into weight lifting then doing curls in a "hammer" position of the hands would help with the specific muscles that control the pistol. Actually, using a hammer would be great...so, go drive some nails. With the off-hand!

I hope these suggestions are helpful.

A-G

I have learned this once, that I have to grip more with my weak hand - and forgot it totally....

I really press with the right hand and just "hold" with the left hand since years, oh my gosh!

This will be hard work to correct this.

Well, if the grips of the shadow match the grip of the TS, I´ll try this, too.

To be true, I often wonder how I should bring my weak (left) hand to the grip.

There is no place for, so my weak hand lies on my strong hand and there is space between my palm and the grip.

That´s more or less the same on all my pistols and I have no idea how this could be changed.

Yessir, I am a reloader and I know about the phenomen with heavier bullets and faster powder, doing this very successful in 9mm.

For the .40 I´m still searching and have yet not found a soft and precise load, hum, to be honest, I didn´t find any soft load with Major PF at all.

In Germany Major starts at a PF of 170, so I try to come close to a PF of 175 to be safe.

Best results until now are with a 180gr. LOS Bullet and Accurate No.2.

200gr. bullets are pretty rare over here, I couldn´t do thight groups with 200gr. ARES for example (trying three different powders).

My recoil spring is the original one, I have no idea how much lbs it has.

Doing a little bit weights to, will go for Hammer´s.

In my earlier life I was a constructor, some years gone since there, don´t nail a lot so.

Thanks for joining in and helping me!

[jayjay1]

@Torogi and Nosteel:

Got that with the stronger grip on my left hand, thank you.

I must take a look, how I can get more contact to the pistol with my left hand.

Actually my left hand lays somehow on my right hand.

[kneelingatlas]

(However, using a faster (not slower) powder with the heavier bullets is what produces the slower/softer feel.

Sorry for the typo, you're absolutely correct!

[NoSteel]

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/17456/thumbs-forward-handgun-grip/

[kneelingatlas]

The SP01 grips need a little modification, I'll try to post some pictures tonight.

I've found the 5.5kg-6kg range works best for the recoil spring.

The little metal things (not my hand, just Google Images) are the ends of the Captians of Crush grippers:

[jayjay1]

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/17456/thumbs-forward-handgun-grip/

I do shoot both thumbs forward on the left side.

There my left thumb is close forward to my trigger finger, when I stretch it.

[jayjay1]

The SP01 grips need a little modification, I'll try to post some pictures tonight.

I've found the 5.5kg-6kg range works best for the recoil spring.

The little metal things (not my hand, just Google Images) are the ends of the Captians of Crush grippers:

Yeah, I checked this out, you need not to post pics, but thanks for the offer.

I just switched the grip panels between the original wooden and the thin aluminium.

With the thin alumunium, the pistol grip doesn´t fit my hand, I have really bad contact and a lot of space to it, especially on my left hand.

With the wider original panels, the room between my ball of the thumb and the finger tips of my right hand is pretty much bigger.

There is enough space for my left hand to fit in and get contact to the pistol grip, it feels much better.

Thank you all so far for your help, this is a big step forward!

Edited October 10, 2013 by jayjay1

[cas]

With my CZ the thick grips feel more natural and fit my hand better. BUT... I can keep a more consistent grip, a firmer grip with the thin grips. With the thick grips the gun tends to rotate, or more often for me to grab it slightly offset (and less likely to notice it).

Point being, what "feels better" isn't always better.

[Glk21C]

You could shoot limited minor? Assuming that is allowed in IPSC, I did not look up any IPSC rules before typing that.

[jayjay1]

You could shoot limited minor? Assuming that is allowed in IPSC, I did not look up any IPSC rules before typing that.

Yes, that´s possible.

But I bought this weapon and joined this caliber to make Major PF.

With my skills right now, there you are absolutely right, it would make more sense to go for Minor, I would do more and better hits in less time.

But that would be like a defeat.

Others can do it, so I must be able to do it too, not?

[jayjay1]

By heaving the same grip setup:

kneelingatlas, how did you think how slick this grip was?

I nearly don´t touch the skatebord tape and the checkering is covered by the paint.

In my opinion it is everything but not skidproofed.

How were your experiences?

[kneelingatlas]

That's not my pistol, just a picture from CZC to show the mag well; I've felt the thin grips but don't like the feel. I started with Hogue finger groove grips on my TS and they provided a secure grip, but it was in consistent on the draw. I cut the grooves off but wasn't happy until I tried the factory rubber grips.

[jayjay1]

With "factory rubber grips" you mean those from the Shadow, right?

I´m thinking about to take some skatebord-tape on the front and back, to cover the checkering.

Edited October 11, 2013 by jayjay1

[All-Gator]

JayJay,

Some additional comments.

Modifying a pistol to fit your hand and grip is just that...personal: What works for me might not be appropriate for you. With that in mind, here are some things that I've done to my pistol(s.) I undercut the beavertail and underside of the trigger guard as much as possible. This allows my strong hand to ride much higher on the frame and closer to the bore of the barrel. Ergonomically, this reduces the mechanical leverage and, thus, gives me greater control of the weapon. You would be surprised and how much material can be removed. In combination with the undercutting, I also removed the factory checkering and further reduced the grip width even more. For me, reducing the width of the grip seems more important than the thickness of the grip. BTW, the factory rolled "checkering" doesn't provide much grip and actually is quite slippery: I use quite rough skate board tape on both front and back of the grip.

I've found that when using the "thumbs forward" technique, the most important aspect is to insure that the off-hand is also as high as possible. This means that the upper edge if the off-hand thumb should be tight (welded actually) to the lower edge of the strong-hand thumb. And pressed against the grip/frame. Twenty (or thirty) years ago, many shooters placed the trigger finger of the off-hand around the front of the trigger guard. This is no longer in vogue, though I think the world's champion still uses that technique. You might try it.

I use a thumbrest only on my open pistol, but only as an index point to maintain a consistent placement of my off-hand. I do not use it to attempt to control recoil. Others might disagree, but I think it adds additional tension to my grip that I do not want.

When shooting NRA Bullseye for the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit...way back in the day), I was taught to use grippers to increase grip strength, but to use them upside down, ie, trigger finger at the greatest width. This (supposedly) did several things: It focused the effort of the middle and ring fingers; it did not overwork the little finger (a muscle memory thing which can cause "milking" of the grip); and, allowed the trigger finger to retain flexibility. Today, I use the Gripmaster which has independent pressure pads for each finger and does the same thing.

A-G

[kneelingatlas]

I took some pictures of my SP01 grips on my TS this morning:

And if all else fails, just convert it to an Open gun!

I also undercut my trigger guard, but did not undercut the beaver tail. When I was shooting precision pistol I learned a lot about tuning the grip to meet the natural point of aim; we used big wooden grips and carved them this way and that way so that you could close your eyes, aim the pistol and when you opened them, the sights would be aligned. I used the same principle when cutting the frame of my TS. At first the front sight would be high in the rear notch, so I undercut the trigger guard until the sights were perfectly aligned when I opened my eyes. My 10M air pistol:

[jayjay1]

JayJay,

Some additional comments.

Modifying a pistol to fit your hand and grip is just that...personal: What works for me might not be appropriate for you. With that in mind, here are some things that I've done to my pistol(s.) I undercut the beavertail and underside of the trigger guard as much as possible. This allows my strong hand to ride much higher on the frame and closer to the bore of the barrel. Ergonomically, this reduces the mechanical leverage and, thus, gives me greater control of the weapon. You would be surprised and how much material can be removed. In combination with the undercutting, I also removed the factory checkering and further reduced the grip width even more. For me, reducing the width of the grip seems more important than the thickness of the grip. BTW, the factory rolled "checkering" doesn't provide much grip and actually is quite slippery: I use quite rough skate board tape on both front and back of the grip.

Hi All-Gator,

I know of the necessary and effort of "gripping as high as possible" and that, if your hands would be aligned / same height as the barrel, there would be no muzzle flip.

I always grip my guns as high as I can.

Unfortunately it is not allowed in Germany for shooters to cut the grip.

This is forbidden by law and only gun smith are allowed to do this. I´m not a metall worker too.

I do have several CZ grip panels, with different material and different widths, I will play around with these a little.

What I will do tomorrow in any case, is to bring skate-board tape on the front and back side, to cover this useless checkering.

I've found that when using the "thumbs forward" technique, the most important aspect is to insure that the off-hand is also as high as possible. This means that the upper edge if the off-hand thumb should be tight (welded actually) to the lower edge of the strong-hand thumb. And pressed against the grip/frame. Twenty (or thirty) years ago, many shooters placed the trigger finger of the off-hand around the front of the trigger guard. This is no longer in vogue, though I think the world's champion still uses that technique. You might try it.

When I began shooting, I learned to set my trigger finger from the off-hand right there, at the front of the trigger guard.

But soon I changed this, because I thought I pull the pistol this way to the left.

I saw Eric on the German Championship (first time live) and was wondering about him doing this.

So it seems not to disturb....

I use a thumbrest only on my open pistol, but only as an index point to maintain a consistent placement of my off-hand. I do not use it to attempt to control recoil. Others might disagree, but I think it adds additional tension to my grip that I do not want.

When shooting NRA Bullseye for the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit...way back in the day), I was taught to use grippers to increase grip strength, but to use them upside down, ie, trigger finger at the greatest width. This (supposedly) did several things: It focused the effort of the middle and ring fingers; it did not overwork the little finger (a muscle memory thing which can cause "milking" of the grip); and, allowed the trigger finger to retain flexibility. Today, I use the Gripmaster which has independent pressure pads for each finger and does the same thing.

A-G

I take a look for the Gripmaster and will get me one, thank yo again for your help.

I took some pictures of my SP01 grips on my TS this morning:

And if all else fails, just convert it to an Open gun!

I also undercut my trigger guard, but did not undercut the beaver tail. When I was shooting precision pistol I learned a lot about tuning the grip to meet the natural point of aim; we used big wooden grips and carved them this way and that way so that you could close your eyes, aim the pistol and when you opened them, the sights would be aligned. I used the same principle when cutting the frame of my TS. At first the front sight would be high in the rear notch, so I undercut the trigger guard until the sights were perfectly aligned when I opened my eyes. My 10M air pistol:

Thank you for the pics!

Like I said, I can´t to cuttings to the grip.

But I will try some different panels and skate-board tape.

Did you cut the rubber grips from the SP-01 a little at the bottom, or didn´t I see this right?

Great support from you as always!

[kneelingatlas]

Yes, I relieved the bottoms of the grips a little on the inside for the mag well. On my first set I just cut them to length, but I could feel the gap between the bottom of the grips and the angle on the mag well so I used them on my Tanfoglio and draped these over the mag well for more support at the bottom of my hand.

[jayjay1]

All right,

this is how I did the skateboard - tape, this helped a lot!

And the more I shoot it, the more I get used to.

Great shooter by the way, very accurate.

Pistol now doesn´t twist in my hand, I can hold grip, but moves still to the right by shooting.

I think I must press more with my left hand, kind of training stuff to do.

Thanks so far.

[jayjay1]

Hm, another option?

Eric Grauffel, world champion in IPSC Production, holds his forefinger (weak hand) at the front of the trigger guard.

Well, normally you shouldn´t do that, what I have learned, but if Eric does with such a success, it can´t be totally wrong I suppose.

If I would hold the trigger guard with my left forefinger, I might prefent the pistol to twist to the right, or not?

I think I will give it a try...