Optional Reshoots at Nationals?!?!

[motosapiens]

People are human. I commend your interest in this topic, and I expect to see you actively involved in increasing the professionalism and performance of the RO staff.

What are you going to do first?

[38SuperDub]

I'm going to follow the rulebook every time I RO and point out to the RM that he is making up a rule when I'm roing

[Strick]

People are human. I commend your interest in this topic, and I expect to see you actively involved in increasing the professionalism and performance of the RO staff.

What are you going to do first?

Probably have a discussion about it instead of just saying "who cares".

[Vlad]

Well seeing how when I took my RO course (with Troy as the instructor) I got a pretty clear impression that optional reshoots don't work that way, I guess I'm going to first sit back and wonder at WTH happened to following the rules, then I'm going to shake my head and shrug it off as "Well, its USPSA" and continue to look upon the rules with mild disdain while trying my best to run fair matches in my neck of the woods.

Then I'm going to continue my policy of not traveling to major matches anymore.

[beltjones]

People are human. I commend your interest in this topic, and I expect to see you actively involved in increasing the professionalism and performance of the RO staff.

What are you going to do first?

This is a response designed to cease the discussion, not guilt Brandon into somehow increasing the performance of the RO staff, which isn't even the heart of the matter here. The heart of the matter is whether or not the RM gave certain shooters the option to reshoot a stage, not whether or not the ROs were professional (which I have no doubt they were).

[pkm]

Well seeing how when I took my RO course (with Troy as the instructor) I got a pretty clear impression that optional reshoots don't work that way, I guess I'm going to first sit back and wonder at WTH happened to following the rules, then I'm going to shake my head and shrug it off as "Well, its USPSA" and continue to look upon the rules with mild disdain while trying my best to run fair matches in my neck of the woods.

Then I'm going to continue my policy of not traveling to major matches anymore.

Then you will be missing great matches. This call was no more a defining moment for this great match then the horrible 51% score I put up. With all the complaining about how things where run this year or whinning about how they may be run in the future I think people are missing the point that this is supposed to be fun and nothing is or can be perfect. The staff for Limited nationals did a fantastic job, which was much more difficult then it is for us to sit here and complain.

[motosapiens]

People are human. I commend your interest in this topic, and I expect to see you actively involved in increasing the professionalism and performance of the RO staff.

What are you going to do first?

Probably have a discussion about it instead of just saying "who cares".

Do you want to have a discussion after learning all the facts? Or just make assumptions and discuss those?

[motosapiens]

People are human. I commend your interest in this topic, and I expect to see you actively involved in increasing the professionalism and performance of the RO staff.

What are you going to do first?

This is a response designed to cease the discussion, not guilt Brandon into somehow increasing the performance of the RO staff, which isn't even the heart of the matter here. The heart of the matter is whether or not the RM gave certain shooters the option to reshoot a stage, not whether or not the ROs were professional (which I have no doubt they were).

It's a response designed to point out how easy and non-constructive it is to be an armchair quarterback with access to only 1 incomplete version of the story.

I think it's reasonable to say "wow, wonder what happened there. I would love to know the whole story and hear the RM's reasoning regarding the rulebook."

I think it's a bit lame to say "The RM's just make up rules. That sucks. Nationals suck. Uspsa sucks. I'm just going to make up my own rules."

[Strick]

I think people are missing the point that this is supposed to be fun and nothing is or can be perfect. T

The part that is being missed is it is hard to travel to a match and have fun if you are not sure if the match will be officiated by the rules. I have also shot another pistol sport for the last 4-5 years and that is what has finally drove me away.

[38SuperDub]

Ok I'm lost:

First you said I didn't have a good source - (Someone ON the Womens Super Squad)

Second you said Paul Hyland wasn't a good source

NOW a person who was DIRECTLY involved comes on here and discusses his OPTIONAL reshoot as well as those for another squad and it's still not good enough?

[motosapiens]

Ok I'm lost:

First you said I didn't have a good source - (Someone ON the Womens Super Squad)

Second you said Paul Hyland wasn't a good source

NOW a person who was DIRECTLY involved comes on here and discusses his OPTIONAL reshoot as well as those for another squad and it's still not good enough?

That is totally untrue. I never said you you didn't have a good source, and I never said paul hyland wasn't a good source. I simply said both were hearsay. And they are. They're also incomplete and one-sided. You are welcome to make judgements based on incomplete and one-sided information. I am free to point out what you are doing. Does that make sense?

[Flexmoney]

I'm going to shut this off for a day (1), so some of you will quit arguing. Argue in a PM to your hearts content. - Admin.

[Flexmoney]

Back open. - Admin.

[Hans Gruber]

It seems to me like folks are conflating two issues:

1) Were shooters given the option to reshoot.

or

2) Were shooters given the option to be truthful about the conditions surrounding their original run.

There's an important difference there and they can be easily misinterpreted in this grand game of Telephone that we're all playing here. I feel like I'm hearing that 2) happened but 1) is being verbally related second hand.

So the question is, should the match staff rely on the shooters recollection/interpretation to determine when a reshoot is appropriate?

Just my $0.02.

[Flexmoney]

Good point, Hans.

[beltjones]

I was trying to post this yesterday just as the thread was locked. It's still as fresh today, luckily.

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The thing is, this isn't the story of the match. From afar I would say the story of the match is that Nils looks to be the heir apparent to TGO, and he added to his growing list of accomplishments at this match. It was also a big deal that Tori won her first (probably of many) Ladies' Championship. Those are the things I think pretty much everyone cares about.

But this is the rules forum, and 50 page threads on abstract minutia based on purely hypothetical situations happen here, and they often get a little heated. If something possibly a little wonky happened at Nationals of course it's going to be a bigger deal than a thread on what happens if the sand comes out of the weighted ammo can stage prop. It's not that anyone is trying to trash the RM or call the ROs unprofessional, it's that we're trying to learn from what may have happened so we can improve the sport going forward.

I'd still like to hear the RM's perspective on what happened, but I'm happy for him to take his time putting his thoughts on the matter together.

[foxriver6]

I was trying to post this yesterday just as the thread was locked. It's still as fresh today, luckily.

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The thing is, this isn't the story of the match. From afar I would say the story of the match is that Nils looks to be the heir apparent to TGO, and he added to his growing list of accomplishments at this match. It was also a big deal that Tori won her first (probably of many) Ladies' Championship. Those are the things I think pretty much everyone cares about.

But this is the rules forum, and 50 page threads on abstract minutia based on purely hypothetical situations happen here, and they often get a little heated. If something possibly a little wonky happened at Nationals of course it's going to be a bigger deal than a thread on what happens if the sand comes out of the weighted ammo can stage prop. It's not that anyone is trying to trash the RM or call the ROs unprofessional, it's that we're trying to learn from what may have happened so we can improve the sport going forward.

I'd still like to hear the RM's perspective on what happened, but I'm happy for him to take his time putting his thoughts on the matter together.

There you go, being reasonable and ruining the whole thread! If you can't contribute something argumentative or based on hearsay then keep your thoughts to yourself, please! ( I hope pointing out the sarcasm is not necessary!)

[Strick]

So the question is, should the match staff rely on the shooters recollection/interpretation to determine when a reshoot is appropriate?

Just my $0.02.

That is why there is a rule book so neither match staff or shooters have to be put in that situation.

[beltjones]

It seems to me like folks are conflating two issues:

1) Were shooters given the option to reshoot.

or

2) Were shooters given the option to be truthful about the conditions surrounding their original run.

There's an important difference there and they can be easily misinterpreted in this grand game of Telephone that we're all playing here. I feel like I'm hearing that 2) happened but 1) is being verbally related second hand.

So the question is, should the match staff rely on the shooters recollection/interpretation to determine when a reshoot is appropriate?

Just my $0.02.

I actually think 1 and 2 could be the same depending on whose perspective it's from. I don't know what happened here, but it's entirely possible an RM could think he's asking 2) and the shooters think he's asking 1).

Luckily there isn't such a thing as using precedent when it comes to the rules of the sport, because if there were, and 2) above is true, then pretty much anyone could get a reshoot on any stage with a mover by simply testifying that the mover somehow wasn't the same for him as it was for everyone else.

[Poppa Bear]

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but isn't the issue here what is the proper way to deal with a sticky/improperly reset popper that materializes after several days of shooting? It is not an issue that shows up suddenly from one shooter to the next but rather comes on slowly. So as a RM how do you fix the issue without tossing the stage out? How far back do you go on the squads that already shot it to see if any of them had a definite problem? Do you order all of them to reshoot or do you leave it up to the honor system and apply your best judgement?

I would be interested in how Troy came up with the decision he made, but I know it was not a decision that was easily made. Option one allows the stage to be saved but makes it hard to determine who was actually disadvantaged. Option two tosses the stage and changes the overall rankings as those who shot it well lose position and those who tanked it gain position.

What is the correct way to deal with this?

[beltjones]

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but isn't the issue here what is the proper way to deal with a sticky/improperly reset popper that materializes after several days of shooting? It is not an issue that shows up suddenly from one shooter to the next but rather comes on slowly. So as a RM how do you fix the issue without tossing the stage out? How far back do you go on the squads that already shot it to see if any of them had a definite problem? Do you order all of them to reshoot or do you leave it up to the honor system and apply your best judgement?

I would be interested in how Troy came up with the decision he made, but I know it was not a decision that was easily made. Option one allows the stage to be saved but makes it hard to determine who was actually disadvantaged. Option two tosses the stage and changes the overall rankings as those who shot it well lose position and those who tanked it gain position.

What is the correct way to deal with this?

That is a very interesting hypothetical, but according the reports of the shooters who were at the match it wasn't an issue that came on suddenly, it was an issue that affected some shooters and not others due to the way the popper was reset. For some it was reset correctly, not so for others. The rest of your questions are compelling regardless of the situation, but in this case I don't believe it was an activator that slowly changed over the course of the match.

[whitedog]

I understand it was the nationals. I also understand the nationals matter in many ways to many people. I guess I have rethought this a bit. And here's my thought. If this was a monthly, an area, a sectional, would it be handled the same way? No one wants a stage tossed at any shoot. Honestly don't know what the "right" or "fair" thing to do is. I do know exactly what the rules say though. Reshoots can only be offered to a shooter in one circumstance. That's black and white. I honestly believe it was handled this way because it was the nationals.

[JakeMartens]

this thread still going......

hey anyone ask Troy yet?

(you know to avoid the whole hypothetical thing..........)

[38SuperDub]

So, I was on squad 13 and we didn't realize that the activator popper was one of the MGM forward or reverse falling ones and were just setting it like a normal popper. We made it about 8 people through our 10 person squad when one shooter hit it three times in the scoring area and just stopped himself from the COF (balzy). Luckily when Troy came over he inspected the target instead of just shooting it and noticed it was set impropperly. He asked how we had been resetting it and we all said we weren't putting the little front stop up (not sure what it is actually called). He ordered a reshoot for our whole squad after setting it propperly and having to recalibrate it. We all reshot the stage, after our reshoots we talked to the R.O. and stated our concern that the popper still wasn't activating consistantly for all competitors and she declided to call Troy over. The ladies squad was up behind us and had an issue with the activator/swinger and were given the option to reshoot a the stage. After hearing about that ruling myself and and a couple of competitors went to Troy and we were given the option of doing a second reshoot on the COF if we felt that the popper activated the swinger slowly. I didn't hear a rule number cited nor did I ask.

Jake - what about this? Asking Troy or not - this is pretty clear how it was handled. The above shooter ASKED for another reshoot and was given one.

[Poppa Bear]

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but isn't the issue here what is the proper way to deal with a sticky/improperly reset popper that materializes after several days of shooting? It is not an issue that shows up suddenly from one shooter to the next but rather comes on slowly. So as a RM how do you fix the issue without tossing the stage out? How far back do you go on the squads that already shot it to see if any of them had a definite problem? Do you order all of them to reshoot or do you leave it up to the honor system and apply your best judgement?

I would be interested in how Troy came up with the decision he made, but I know it was not a decision that was easily made. Option one allows the stage to be saved but makes it hard to determine who was actually disadvantaged. Option two tosses the stage and changes the overall rankings as those who shot it well lose position and those who tanked it gain position.

What is the correct way to deal with this?

That is a very interesting hypothetical, but according the reports of the shooters who were at the match it wasn't an issue that came on suddenly, it was an issue that affected some shooters and not others due to the way the popper was reset. For some it was reset correctly, not so for others. The rest of your questions are compelling regardless of the situation, but in this case I don't believe it was an activator that slowly changed over the course of the match.

So that leads to the question of how do you fix it? Going under the supposition that the popper was not properly reset for some shooters, how do you determine who was disadvantaged? If you do not come up with some way to identify the shooters then you have to toss the stage. If you toss the stage for having several shooters disadvantaged due to the popper reset then you leave the door open for future stages to get tossed due to squad members failing to reset a stage in the exact same manner every time.