IDPA 38 special loads

[Rockchucker]

I'm trying to find a good IDPA load for the 38 special so I can go into mass production over the winter. I have been shooting National 158 TC copper washed bullets in nickel Federal +P 38 special cases with Federal SP primers. I rotate a pair of S&W 686's. My load has been 3.7 grs. of straight Clays. This is a nice soft, accurate load, but it is a little smokey for indoor (Wisconsin winter) shooting. I have also used Ranier 158 RN plated, but I had to go up to 4.1 grains of Clays to consistantly meet the 125 PF and I'm not sure if this is a safe load. Clays data for the 38 doesn't go that high, but extraction is slick and primers are only mildly flattened. I'm chronographing at 10 ft. from the muzzle over an Oehler 35. If I knew that the 4.1 gr. of Clays was a safe load with the Ranier bullet, I'd keep shooting it. I shot almost 3,000 rounds of the 158 National Copper Washed bullet over the past year, and really like it except for the cost (more than Ranier) and the lead smoke.

I would really like to settle on the 158 Ranier RN bullet, for cleanliness and speed of reloading. Any suggestions on powder? In his excellent article on the 38 special (Oct/Nov HANDGUNS) Patrick Sweeney gives a few loads, but my chrono data doesn't come close to matching his. He shows a 158 gr Ranier with 3.6 gr. of Tightgroup at 822 fps. I shot the same bullet out of my 4" 686's with 4.2 gr. of TG and only got 787 fps.

Anyway....Any suggestions for an IDPA load with 158 gr. Ranier (plated) bullets, Fed SP primer, Fed +P case. The powders I have on hand are: Tightgroup, WST, Universal Clays, Straight Clays, W231, HP-38, Bullseye, HS-6 and WSF.

Thanks for the input.

[DougCarden]

I use 3.6gr Nitro 100 (N100) with 158 Berrys or WestCoast. Experiment with the crimp, you wont be disappointed. DougC

[wlktheduk]

I have been using the 158 grain Ranier Flat Point bullet, with WW231 powder.

Using mixed cases, Federal No. 100 Small Pistol primers, I have fired the following loads through a S&W Model 686 with a 6" barrel, and a S&W Model 10 with a 4" barrel

These are +P pressure level loads, and there is some primer flattening. Also, on a cloudy day, or on an indoor firing range, there is some muzzle flash.

4.8 grains WW231 831FPS (131.2 PF) S&W 686, 6" barrel

4.8 grains WW231 806FPS (127.3 PF) S&W Model 10, 4" barrel

5.0 grains WW231 857FPS (135.4 PF) S&W 686, 6" barrel

5.0 grains WW231 840FPS (132.7 PF) S&W Model 10, 4" barrel

Yes, I know the 6" barrel is not legal for IDPA. But I used the 5.0 grains WW231 load this year in my S&W 686 to have a lot of fun shooting the Buckeye Blast and Area 5 USPSA matches, and also the Hillbilly and Cardinal Cup NRA Action Pistol tournaments. When the loose nut behind the trigger does his part, the 5.0 grain WW231 load is accurate enough for A ring hits on a Bianchi NRA D-1 target, out to 50 yards. YMMV, but I hope this helps

[rwmagnus]

Anyone using Titegroup or Clays powder for thier 38 spcl or 38+P loads? I'd like to hear about your results.

[Patrick Sweeney]

While revolvers are a lot more forgiving than pistols (no set-back in feeding, for example) you'll find much larger velocity variations in revolvers. Looking at that article, I probably should have mentioned that a lot of the data was developed in my ICORE gun: a Baumann-cylindered S&W 28 with a 5.5" 627 barrel, and a cylinder gap in the range of .003" It is the fastest (velocity-wise) .38/.357 I've ever owned. It also has tight chambers and throats cut at the small side for .38/.357, .3565"

It produces tight groups, and higher velocities than any other I own. (No, it isn't for sale.) As I use it in matches more than any other .38.357, it is the one I use to chronograph in. I should have remembered, and mentioned, that.

I have had pistols that were otherwise identical show a 50 fps difference with the same production lot of ammo, chrono'd within minutes of each other. I've seen revolvers differ by over 100 fps with the same load.

The internals of a chrono are voodoo for those who do not have a degree in electrical engineering. But you don't need that degree to read the output. Why your revolver is slower might be an interesting question, but the fact remains; you must adjust your loads for your gun.

Use others loading data as a guide, and fine-tune according to what your gun tells you.

[Rockchucker]

Patrick:

I was hoping that you might chime in...I really enjoy your writing! Your Gunsmithing: Pistols and Revolver book is excellent. I also appreciated your article in The Complete Book of the 1911, as well as the reloading articles in HANDGUNNER. Keep them coming!

Reloading for IDPA is an oxy-mooron..... If you are going to compete (game!) you have to load many cartridges down! for a competition that stresses survival shooting skills. Since I enjoy shooting a variety of handguns, it is a challange to find loading data that will give 125-130 PF loads in such calibers as .44 special, 38 super, 357 sig. 10mm, 41 Mag etc. These are guns that I shoot for enjoyment. Certainly not for competition! For "gaming" I shoot .40 S&W, .38 special, .45 acp and of course the 9mm.

It is particularily difficult to find data for the .38 special that will allow you to make 125+ PF (158 gr. bullets) with anything except lead. I would really like to standardize on the 158 Ranier RN. Do you think that I am OK with the 4.0 Clays load in Fed +P .38 cases??? It is a nice soft load, I'm just worried about the pressure! As Imentioned, I am only shooting this load through L frame Smith's.

Might I suggest that you write a few articles on "Loading Down for IDPA". I'm sure that it would be a hot button topic. You can find all kinds of articles on loading the .40 S&W and the various super-nines to "Major" for USPSA or Pin shooting, but very little on developing loads around 125-130 PF.

I fully understand the pitfalls of comparison chronographing. I have been a reloader sine 1966 and load over 50 various rifle and pistol cartridges in addition to all of the shotgun guages. I've owned three different chronographs in that time (all Oehlers). I often tell shooters, new to reloading, that the most frustrating things in life are patterning a shotgun and owning a chronograph. Either will blow big holes in what you "thought" that you had!

Thanks for your time... moderating the reloading section of this excellent site.

Regards, Mike (AKA: Rockchucker)

[Patrick Sweeney]

The pressure ceiling for .38 Special exists to keep owners of .38 Special revolvers made before WWII out of trouble. The brass is the same (within manufacturing tolerances) and while I would not advise loading .38s to 34K like .357, you surely can eke out a few fps past the 17K of the .38 Special. And in an L or N frame, is the gun really going to notice if you push the .38 to (omigod!) 22K?

Find something that comes close with book pressures, then edge it up to get what you need.

After all, we're not trying to make Major with it.

And the irony of having to load IDPA ammo down, to be competitive in an exercise that is "training" and not "competition" does not escape me.

[rwmagnus]

... The brass is the same (within manufacturing tolerances) ..

Well yes and no. We now have +P brass which has alittle more wall thickness for higher pressures that the boys of WWII didn't have. BUT yes I agree with what you said.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I have used Bullseye powder for several years to make minor. It seems to burn very clean so there is no powder residue under the ejector star. I got my load info from a Speer number ten reloading manual. The newer books are a little more cautious.

I get higher velocities per powder charge out of military brass such as WCC. It usually has a crimped primer which can be a pain.

My loads are borderline PlusP. It's hard to make minor with a 3 or 4 inch barrel.

Bill Nesbitt

[Patrick Sweeney]

One approach you might consider are 180 pr 200 grain bullets. A 180 has a Minor threshold of 694 fps. A 200 has one of 625. The old .38 S&W, that the British had a jazillion K frames made in, produced those numbers.

You'd probably be using something like 3.2 of Bullseye, but talk about soft!

[revchuck]

I've been using 4.1 grains of Titegroup with Zero 158 grain swaged RNL for several years. It's a clean, accurate load, but it's also +P. I shoot it in my M67-2 with no problems, about 7k rounds so far since I bought the gun used. It runs around 830 fps. It runs 885 fps out of my M681-2 - go figure...

Since you're using a 686, there's nothing keeping you from using .357 brass...or data, for that matter. My .357 practice load runs around 1100 fps. Works well on poppers.

[Rockchucker]

Thanks for all the info.....I'm going to keep working on the 4.0 gr. Clays load with the 158 Ranier bullet. It is clean and mild! I'm also going to test 4.2 gr. of Tightgroup and the same bullet. It shot very well the last time I tried it, but it was just under the 125 PF (780 fps). Maybe a little more "crimp" will help (I hate to even use the term "crimp"). I'm leary of overcrimping plated bullets, but I haven't experienced any of the seperation problems that I have read about on this and other sites.... I use the same finishing die (Lee Factory Crimp) setting that I use for 158 gr. Rem JHP and haven't had a problem ....

[21 shooter]

I have just recently tried Titegroup in .38 Spl loads using a 4" 686. I used 3.8 grs. with a very hard cast Valiant 158 gr. LSWC. Groups at 25 yards were excellent. I do not have a chrono so I don't know what the velocity is. It does seem to burn a little cleaner than WW 231 or Bullseye.