The battle of two Revolvers (6-Shot Major vs 8-Shot Minor)

[mcb]

New thread rather than spamming the {Approved for member review...} thread with more of me personal battle with myself. Another five stages this weekend with both Revolvers (5" 625 vs 5" 627) using the same rig other than the revolver for both runs.

My setups gun wise is as identical as I could make it. 6-shot is a 5-inch 625, 8-shot is a 5-inch 627. Both have the same fiber optic front sight, same modified Hogue Grips and same California Competition cylinder release. The same Bladetech holster was used as well as the same 4 post Northern Mountain Moon clip holder. I was shooting ~168 PF 230gr RN BBI in the 625, and ~130 PF 158gr RN Sierra in 627.

The 6-shot Major 625 (Rev Div) stomp the 8-shot Minor 627 (Prod Div) this weekend winning 5 of 5 stages. Match score would have been Major@290 vs Minor@255.38 (88.1%) I scored better (raw 271 vs 249) and shoot the match in less total time (55.14 vs 59.66) with the Major Gun.

(YouTube video link)

I added these five stages in with the fourteen stage (I shared in the Approved for member review... thread) since I got both guns setup the same and both shooting round nose loads. (As if you did already know but SWCs really hurt you reload times in the 627 )

nineteen stages ranged from 1 rd to 31 rds, averaging 18.84 rds/stage, total round count of 358rds.

I scored it as if it was a two person match, using the high HF for each stage as usual for match points. 6-shot Major is now just barely squeeking out a win.

8-shot had 1637.2 match pts

6-shot had 1641.0 match pts

6-shot had 100.23% of 8-shot match points

Total points possible was 1790.

8-shot raw points was 1659

6-shot raw points was 1580

ETA2: Dang I mess this up too.

8-shot raw points was 1580

6-shot raw points was 1659

both have 40 pts in penalties

8-shot had a total trigger time of 408.26 sec

6-shot had a total trigger time of 382.26 sec

Dang it I mess this up, I mixed the times up on 8/6-shot.

8-shot had a total trigger time of 382.26 sec

6-shot had a total trigger time of 408.26 sec

6-shot has won 13 of 19 stages

If it makes any difference I am a B-class shooter and have been shooting revolver in USPSA competition since 2006. Until next match me and my Lewis lead remover will be getting to know each other better.

ETA: Fixed the times, sorry guys

Edited September 24, 2013 by mcb

[DWFAN]

Why do you think your 8 shot trigger time was so much higher? Did you have any noticable errors or malfunctions that cost you time with one gun and not the other?

[ChrisC]

I know from personal experience I have a hard time transitioning between my 625 and 627.

[earplug]

Killing my excuse to buy a 627.

[Flexmoney]

Matt, those reloads...

[mcb]

Why do you think your 8 shot trigger time was so much higher? Did you have any noticable errors or malfunctions that cost you time with one gun and not the other?

DWFAN, My apologizes, my total 19 stage Minor time is lower than my Major time. I unfortunately mixed them up in the OP. I have fixed that error. On this weekends match I think I was faster with the 6-shot overall because of accuracy. I shot 6-shot clean, no misses, no extra shots. With 8-shot Minor I had no misses but two extra shots on steel targets. The extra shot on stage 4 cost me an extra reload with the Minor 8-shot since it was a 16rd stage. I ended up shooting it exactly the same as I had to shoot it with my 6-shot.

I know from personal experience I have a hard time transitioning between my 625 and 627.

So far I have found that the transition has not been to bad. The switch is better than when I was shooting Limited-10 and Production with two different semi-autos. I have really enjoyed breaking down the stages for each. I do have to remember I can shoot faster with the minor gun especially on the close stuff, but I have to remember to slow down just a touch on the minor reloads because otherwise those 8-shot moonclip start dancing the Macarena on the face of the cylinder, as you can see a couple times in the above video.

[seanc]

I know from personal experience I have a hard time transitioning between my 625 and 627.

Same for me. They are both N frames but I find them very different to actually shoot.

[ChrisC]

What moon clips are you using?

[alecmc]

Thanks for the analysis, Though - I am still a bit pessimistic about having the 8 shot minors play. I think one of the reasons your 625 won out this time were for the following reasons.

Stage round count and design, I only saw that one stage that had " 8 shot array / 8 shot array , etc ) and even then, you had the opportunity to work around it since they were not that far from each other.

Also, the overall stage round counts were fairly low at your match, dont think I saw an 32 round COF.

Reloads, your 625 reloads are significantly quicker.. Dont know if it was moonclips, or chamfer

Comfort level, you look alot more comfortable with your 625.

Edited September 23, 2013 by alecmc

[mcb]

Matt, those reloads...

That bad? or good? I though I had several of both.

What moon clips are you using?

On my 625 I am using Ranch Products and Starline brass. On the 627 I am using Revolver Supply. 0.025 with Remington and Federal brass and the 0.020 with Winchester. I got some Ranch Product 8-shot moonclips but have not had a chance to play with them yet. Hopefully buy next year I will be either shooting 38 "mid" Colt or possible a 9mm cylinder on the 627.

Thanks for the analysis, Though - I am still a bit pessimistic about having the 8 shot minors play. I think one of the reasons your 625 won out this time were for the following reasons.

Stage round count and design, I only saw that one stage that had " 8 shot array / 8 shot array , etc ) and even then, you had the opportunity to work around it since they were not that far from each other.

Also, the overall stage round counts were fairly low at your match, dont think I saw an 32 round COF.

Reloads, your 625 reloads are significantly quicker.. Dont know if it was moonclips, or chamfer

Comfort level, you look alot more comfortable with your 625.

Yeah this match had only two stages that could give the 8-shot a reload advantage and I manage to screw one of those up. The other stages reloads did not play a part. I am definitely more comfortable with the 625. Been shooting it since late 2011. Have only had the 627 for two+ months. Also in the video above I chose to shoot 6-shot second gun and I usually shoot better my second time through a match. My timing nearly always gets better. I specifically alternate which gun I shoot first for just that reason.

Edited September 23, 2013 by mcb

[ChrisC]

I really like my revolver supply company moons for my 8 shot... let's me save my tk's for big matches.

[ChrisC]

Another variable is the special brass. I use short colts and they are a bunch faster than specials.

[alecmc]

I really like my revolver supply company moons for my 8 shot... let's me save my tk's for big matches.

Another variable is the special brass. I use short colts and they are a bunch faster than specials.

I agree, the .025 revo supply moonclips are excellent , and with my short colt brass they load smooth as butter.

Yeah this match had only two stages that could give the 8-shot a reload advantage and I manage to screw one of those up. The other stages reloads did not play a part. I am definitely more comfortable with the 625. Been shooting it since late 2011. Have only had the 627 for two+ months. Also in the video above I chose to shoot 6-shot second gun and I usually shoot better my second time through a match. My timing nearly always gets better. I specifically alternate which gun I shoot first for just that reason.

Understood, I just still feel that on longer 32 round COF which *a good portion * of stages designs like the whole - 4 targets here...4 targets here , etc etc That 8 rounded would dominate. Though, I am hoping that I will be proved otherwise.

[mcb]

I really like my revolver supply company moons for my 8 shot... let's me save my tk's for big matches.

If I go the "mid" Colt route I will probable break down and down and buy Starline Brass and TK moons, at least for the big matches. But so far the Revolver Supply and mixed 38 Special brass is working pretty well for me. I am pretty sure some of the 38 Special brass I am using is older than me. REM-UMC, W-W, Western, and WRA headstamps among a host of others.

[Flexmoney]

Matt, those reloads...

That bad? or good? I though I had several of both.

I saw some rough ones. Watch the video with just that in mind. Maybe 1 good one with the 627, and a couple with the 625.

[seanc]

Matt, those reloads...

That bad? or good? I though I had several of both.

I saw some rough ones. Watch the video with just that in mind. Maybe 1 good one with the 627, and a couple with the 625.

Thats what I saw as well. When they are good, they are pretty solid.

The rough ones are killing your times.

[mcb]

Matt, those reloads...

That bad? or good? I though I had several of both.

I saw some rough ones. Watch the video with just that in mind. Maybe 1 good one with the 627, and a couple with the 625.

Thats what I saw as well. When they are good, they are pretty solid.

The rough ones are killing your times.

Agreed, the 8-shots really like to dance for me sometimes. Why is it when you practice in the basement they drop right in and in the match they dance?

[one-gun]

Agreed, the 8-shots really like to dance for me sometimes. Why is it when you practice in the basement they drop right in and in the match they dance?

I've noticed the same thing on my 8 shot .38 super. It felt like I would let go of the moon and then instead of dropping in (like it normally would in the garage) I would find myself nudging or pushing it in, which it seems you did a couple times either with your thumb or forefingers.

It is probably a combination of a lot of things but one thing to consider is how vertical was the gun. It was a little hard to tell from the angle in your video but once when a brother video taped me I noticed that on the reloads that didn't drop very well I wasn't holding the gun as vertically as I thought I was so the moons couldn't drop straight down and in. No doubt caused by the pressure of that infernal beep of the timer, friends/competitors watching, and the gun going boom instead of click like in practice.

+1 on the heartco moons and starline brass, at least for my super. Most consistently smooth reloads. Too floppy and they get all knock knee'ed, too tight and they just bounce around on the cylinder face and don't find their own way in.

[Flexmoney]

Yeah...I'm not a big revo shooter, but that vertical angle seems off, all around.

Perhaps a technique change would help when the tension goes up? Let me ask this, can you see daylight...right through the cylinders...as you go to insert the rounds?

Plus, those off the clock reloads (on the classifier)...those could be used as free practices loads. I'd do them the same as a speed reload.

[Toolguy]

Revos are gravity operated. Gravity in, gravity out. It needs to be pretty close to vertical for both to work well. You can have it vertical in one plane and leaned towards the targets in another plane so as not to break 180.

[seanc]

Yeah...I'm not a big revo shooter, but that vertical angle seems off, all around.Perhaps a technique change would help when the tension goes up? Let me ask this, can you see daylight...right through the cylinders...as you go to insert the rounds?Plus, those off the clock reloads (on the classifier)...those could be used as free practices loads. I'd do them the same as a speed reload.

where did the daylight thing come from?

i dont see anything in particular but am looking for ways to get faster at this. i usually barely even look, but sometimes i see the whole gun, sometimes i see a single charge hole, sometimes the ratchet...

[seanc]

Revos are gravity operated. Gravity in, gravity out. It needs to be pretty close to vertical for both to work well. You can have it vertical in one plane and leaned towards the targets in another plane so as not to break 180.

When I first started craig told me things work best at 179.5 degrees....

not literal obviously, but I got the idea.

[Flexmoney]

where did the daylight thing come from?

Better off asking the Revo regulars what they see. I'm a hack with a wheel gun. The thought is that if you can see through the cylinders (daylight) then you can know the angle and run the rounds right along your line of sight for good alignment.

Could be gobble-gook, but might lead to observation.

[Bubber]

Something is just not adding up for me.."...I scored it as if it was a two person match, using the high HF for each stage as usual for match points. 6-shot Major is now just barely squeeking out a win.

8-shot had 1637.2 match pts
6-shot had 1641.0 match pts
6-shot had 100.23% of 8-shot match points

Total points possible was 1790.
8-shot raw points was 1659
6-shot raw points was 1580

8-shot had a total trigger time of 382.26 sec

6-shot had a total trigger time of 408.26 sec

It seems you are taking the points you got for the 6 shot in revo and the points for your 8 shot against the production. You shot it faster with your 8 shot and had more points with your 8 shot. WO considering where your stage points and time came from the 8 shot should have had almost a 11% advantage just comparing the two as competing only against each other? Math is my friend.... later rdd

[mcb]

Something is just not adding up for me.."...I scored it as if it was a two person match, using the high HF for each stage as usual for match points. 6-shot Major is now just barely squeeking out a win.

8-shot had 1637.2 match pts

6-shot had 1641.0 match pts

6-shot had 100.23% of 8-shot match points

Total points possible was 1790.

8-shot raw points was 1659

6-shot raw points was 1580

8-shot had a total trigger time of 382.26 sec

6-shot had a total trigger time of 408.26 sec

It seems you are taking the points you got for the 6 shot in revo and the points for your 8 shot against the production. You shot it faster with your 8 shot and had more points with your 8 shot. WO considering where your stage points and time came from the 8 shot should have had almost a 11% advantage just comparing the two as competing only against each other? Math is my friend.... later rdd

Clearly I was under caffeinated this morning. I manage to transpose the points and the times. I think I have it fixed now but its so late I probably made more errors than I fixed in the OP.