PF vs POPPER FALLING QUESTION

[Henry625]

I know that there are rules covering this issue, I know that riding the ragged edge of the minimum power factor, 125, will sooner or later lead you astray and steel will not fall, but I must say at the risk of sounding confrontational, if the stated minimum is 125, the answer of; "load hotter to cover heavy set

steel" just doesn't wash. The power factor is clearly published at 125 and if the shooter has been

chrono'd by match officials on the match chronograph and their ammunition passed the test, if steel does not fall, it is prop failure at that point. The shooter should wave his chrono slip in the air like a

"get out of jail free" card!

Sorry guys, I just had to say that....

[Nik Habicht]

I know that there are rules covering this issue, I know that riding the ragged edge of the minimum power factor, 125, will sooner or later lead you astray and steel will not fall, but I must say at the risk of sounding confrontational, if the stated minimum is 125, the answer of; "load hotter to cover heavy set

steel" just doesn't wash. The power factor is clearly published at 125 and if the shooter has been

chrono'd by match officials on the match chronograph and their ammunition passed the test, if steel does not fall, it is prop failure at that point. The shooter should wave his chrono slip in the air like a

"get out of jail free" card!

Sorry guys, I just had to say that....

Sorry, the only thing the chrono measures is the rounds actually fired over it. We give you a power factor break on the other rounds fired in the match, by scoring them as if they are identical to the rounds fired over the chrono. Decide to ride the edge, and have steel remain up? We give you yet another potential break with the calibration procedure.....

Still have a problem? Chat with the guy who reloaded the ammo.....

[Henry625]

I always give myself a little buffer just to cover the differences in chronographs from one match to the other.

I also understand what you're saying, but at a certain level of this "game", the ability to "game" the

game comes into play.

This "game" promotes finding an edge no matter how insignificant to others, if you doubt that statement, look at the aftermarket that has built up around this game, there are millions of dollars being made

because some shooters perceive that a smoother trigger, a bigger magwell, or a new pair of grips is all

that stands between them and first place.

Anyway, enough on this subject, let's go shoot!

[B45C22]

With the rules for calibration ring what they are - "you can't fix a popper til it fails" and the fact that everything built by the hands of men is inherently flawed, consider the buffer in your loads to be a buffer against the popper changing during the course of a match. We have all seen that popper go from "perfect" to "you can't knock it down with a 2x4 over the course of a few squads.

As unfair as it seems when you are the one that it failed on AND you lose the calibration, I don't know of a fix for that situation.

Bottom line is this - if you are relying on the difference between 125 and 130-132pf for your place in the finish, then you should spend that time and worry practicing drawing or reloading. Those two things will earn you way more difference than the difference in 125 and 130.

[Flexmoney]

Those that live by the mouse fart...die by the mouse fart.

[Nik Habicht]

With the rules for calibration ring what they are - "you can't fix a popper til it fails" and the fact that everything built by the hands of men is inherently flawed,

Huh? Where does it say that you "can't fix a popper until it fails?" Point me to that verbiage, please.....

I expect ROs to manage their steel -- and if they need to tinker with it, I'm happy to roll by quickly, and perform a calibration check to ensure that their efforts result in an equitable piece of steel.....

[B45C22]

It has been a pretty common theme at matches, both big and small, that no matter how out of line the popper looks, the RO will not touch it until it fails to go down and fails a calibration.

I'm not going to search the rule book to see if that is written there or not, but I can tell you that I have been told that by multiple RO's at multiple matches that that is the/their policy.

If you are a RM and you have a policy that allows ro's to proactively set and reset poppers, then bravo, but how is that equitable for the guy who was last to shoot it before the resetting. Maybe he got an edge or low hit that would send it down if it were reset just before his run.

I think that the policy of not changing the settings until it fails is the only fair way to do it. It does suck when the popper falls into the range where the first hit moves it a little (enough that the calibration hit sends it down). I just don't know how to make it fair otherwise. Maybe if they reset it to exactly the same pressure between each and every shooter.....not really feasible either.

[Poppa Bear]

The more common issue I see is the popper pounding itself into the ground so that it will not stay up. Tweak the nut/bolt a bit until it stays up. Sometimes it goes to far and the popper fails to fall. Call for calibration and if ti fails back off a bit until it does fall.

[Nik Habicht]

B45,

Is it unequitable to expect that ROs confirm that all paper targets have been reset appropriately (i.e. pasted correctly)? Is it inequitable to expect ROs to decide when to replace targets on their stage? To ensure that movers have been reset correctly? To me the litmus test is this -- was the popper reset to the same standard as for every other shooter? Good steel, with properly adjusted set screws/double nuts that have been tightened against each other, mounted on plywood bases shouldn't change from shooter to shooter. If it does for some reason, the poppwer either needs to be replaced or more tightly managed to get through the match....

This does take some effort on the part of the match staff -- but competitors deserve no less....

[Nik Habicht]

The more common issue I see is the popper pounding itself into the ground so that it will not stay up. Tweak the nut/bolt a bit until it stays up. Sometimes it goes to far and the popper fails to fall. Call for calibration and if ti fails back off a bit until it does fall.

If it's a major match, I'd really like to see the poppers on plywood bases. That keeps them -- usually -- from pounding themselves into the ground....

[Poppa Bear]

The more common issue I see is the popper pounding itself into the ground so that it will not stay up. Tweak the nut/bolt a bit until it stays up. Sometimes it goes to far and the popper fails to fall. Call for calibration and if ti fails back off a bit until it does fall.

If it's a major match, I'd really like to see the poppers on plywood bases. That keeps them -- usually -- from pounding themselves into the ground....

That is why I cut wood planks for our popper bases, makes it a lot harder for the base to pound its way into the ground. Also most of our poppers are two piece units. The popper is separate from the base so it is harder for it to transfer its momentum to the base as it falls.

[JayWord]

It has been a pretty common theme at matches, both big and small, that no matter how out of line the popper looks, the RO will not touch it until it fails to go down and fails a calibration.

I'm not going to search the rule book to see if that is written there or not, but I can tell you that I have been told that by multiple RO's at multiple matches that that is the/their policy.

If you are a RM and you have a policy that allows ro's to proactively set and reset poppers, then bravo, but how is that equitable for the guy who was last to shoot it before the resetting. Maybe he got an edge or low hit that would send it down if it were reset just before his run.

I think that the policy of not changing the settings until it fails is the only fair way to do it. It does suck when the popper falls into the range where the first hit moves it a little (enough that the calibration hit sends it down). I just don't know how to make it fair otherwise. Maybe if they reset it to exactly the same pressure between each and every shooter.....not really feasible either.

I think Nik stated pretty well. There has been a misconception that you cannot maintain your poppers without RM intervention.That is incorrect. (see 4.6.1) In the current RO courses we discuss this misconception. It is the duty of the range officer to present as best they can a fair and equitable playing field for all competitors. Making sure your steel is properly maintained is part of the concept of stage ownership. Taking the time to check your steel before it fails and potentially causing a reshoot is part of keeping a level playing field.

The primary issue I see out in the country is most club level matches do not have 115-125 calibration ammo or if they do, they do not use it. In the distant past when minor was rarely shot, i.e. before production became more popular, this was not an issue. It has become one.

My unwritten policy is to set steel as light as it will stay up in the wind. Yes occasionally a competitor may end up dropping a popper with a weeny edge hit, but in the long run if they are running at the edge of their skill set, it will be reflected in their overall scores. D and MIsses really hurt when shooting minor.

This is only my opinion.

Jay Worden

[kevin c]

It would seem that USPSA prefers that PF be tested at the Chrono stage, not on field courses with "heavy" set steel. I don't agree with that, but will concede that it makes the match run faster if steel is set "light". (I've been at national venues where forward falling poppers of the latch type would fall to any hit anywhere on the target face, including just above the base hinge, to a 9mm minor load).