Jaxshooter Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 It is not that hard to put a form in the registration packet to authorize somebody to go to the prise table for you if you have to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) That's exactly the reason that I don't go back to XXX - I finished first in my class (A) and got a pair of ear plugs while others who finished really poorly got guns. That and the fact that it is such a small match and it gets smaller when they have to throw out stages. I work on a 100% commission system. I only get what I earn. I can't comprehend why, in a competition, people would want to award prizes and awards based upon anything but performance. I really don't have a problem with the way that they do it at the pro-am either. It is still performance based. First in your class is a meaningless feel-good award unless your class is GM. I'm all for giving out plaques and other crap to sandbaggers who care about 'class' awards, but random draw for valuable prizes makes more sense to me than either giving prizes to sandbaggers or giving them all out to GM's and M's (and the occasional up-and-coming A). Edited June 11, 2013 by ima45dv8 match-specific reference removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 This is one of the reasons why 3 gun matches are growin so fast and USPSA matches are falling off. USPSA matches are somewhat PC in that almost everyone gets recognized as to not upset anyone just like a kindergarten spelling bee. Everyone gets a plaque or recognition. So your argument is that USPSA attendance is falling off (Is it? News to me.) because people don't like getting recognized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) That's exactly the reason that I don't go back to XXX - I finished first in my class (A) and got a pair of ear plugs while others who finished really poorly got guns. That and the fact that it is such a small match and it gets smaller when they have to throw out stages. I work on a 100% commission system. I only get what I earn. I can't comprehend why, in a competition, people would want to award prizes and awards based upon anything but performance. I really don't have a problem with the way that they do it at the pro-am either. It is still performance based. First in your class is a meaningless feel-good award unless your class is GM. I'm all for giving out plaques and other crap to sandbaggers who care about 'class' awards, but random draw for valuable prizes makes more sense to me than either giving prizes to sandbaggers or giving them all out to GM's and M's (and the occasional up-and-coming A). To call a class win " meaningless and feel good" may be your opinion, but that is way too broad a blanket to throw at it. Those class wins mean a lot to me. However, I agree that 1st d class who finishes 80th overall for the division shouldn't get a better prize than 2nd GM who finishes 2nd overall. I believe it should be order of overall finish. Random draw rewards meteocracy. The people who put in the time to practice and get better should get the better prizes. Performance based, not luck based. For those of you saying that top level people prefer random, I am here to tell you that I am one and I don't. I really can't imagine who you are talking about. Edited June 11, 2013 by ima45dv8 match-specific reference removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) Lets get back to the original question ......why not proxy forms? For random or order of finish? There are two problems here that need answers. Edited June 10, 2013 by latech15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) That's exactly the reason that I don't go back to XXX - I finished first in my class (A) and got a pair of ear plugs while others who finished really poorly got guns. That and the fact that it is such a small match and it gets smaller when they have to throw out stages. I work on a 100% commission system. I only get what I earn. I can't comprehend why, in a competition, people would want to award prizes and awards based upon anything but performance. I really don't have a problem with the way that they do it at the pro-am either. It is still performance based. First in your class is a meaningless feel-good award unless your class is GM. I'm all for giving out plaques and other crap to sandbaggers who care about 'class' awards, but random draw for valuable prizes makes more sense to me than either giving prizes to sandbaggers or giving them all out to GM's and M's (and the occasional up-and-coming A). To call a class win " meaningless and feel good" may be your opinion, but that is way too broad a blanket to throw at it. Those class wins mean a lot to me. However, I agree that 1st d class who finishes 80th overall for the division shouldn't get a better prize than 2nd GM who finishes 2nd overall. I believe it should be order of overall finish. Random draw rewards meteocracy. The people who put in the time to practice and get better should get the better prizes. Performance based, not luck based. For those of you saying that top level people prefer random, I am here to tell you that I am one and I don't. I really can't imagine who you are talking about. lol, so *your* class win is important, but the D class win is not important. i get it. You just want other people to give you free stuff. If that's your motivation for shooting, then that's very interesting. From a marketing standpoint, if I donated stuff to a prize table, I would want my stuff going to someone else. Edited June 11, 2013 by ima45dv8 match-specific reference removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) Is it outside the realm of possibilities that at a match where they do random drawings, that a person who finishes well would get a cheap prize and someone who finishes poorly gets a gun? That's not outside the realm of possibility, and also it doesn't bother me at all. I used to be involved with mountain bike races, and as a supporting business, we always insisted that the prizes we donated be distributed by random draw. We didn't want to keep giving stuff to the same top guys that were already sponsored and would never come into our shop anyway. We wanted to reward (and attract) the people that were actually paying for their own stuff, and who were potential paying customers. I would expect that many shooting-industry businesses would probably feel similarly. Edited June 10, 2013 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 If you want to be rewarded for work, go to your job. If you want to be rewarded for shooting, then stop whining and convince the people that actually donate the prizes that they should give them to you, and that doing so makes good business sense for them and for the match directors. Or put on your own match and make your own rules. I think it's ironic that you mention atlas shrugged (which is crap writing, btw) while you complain about not getting your fair share of free stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 If you want to be rewarded for work, go to your job. If you want to be rewarded for shooting, then stop whining and convince the people that actually donate the prizes that they should give them to you, and that doing so makes good business sense for them and for the match directors. Or put on your own match and make your own rules. I think it's ironic that you mention atlas shrugged (which is crap writing, btw) while you complain about not getting your fair share of free stuff. At what point did I ask for something that I haven't earned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Seems to be two schools of thought here. 1) prizes in order of finish to reward and attact better shooters who feel compensated for efforts. More GM, M , etc top shooters may show, which " legitimizes" the match in some minds, and may even be a draw for lesser shooters who want to watch the Super Squad. 2) prizes are random draw, giving everyone an equal chance, and may motivate more lower class shooters to come, making a larger base or bulk of the shooters. I like the way Porter does it at the Double Tap. Cash and guns for top Division winners and/or Class winners..... Rest of prizes random draw. You are still rewarding top shooters with what they really want (cash or something to sell) and giving everyone a chance to get something cool. Having prize table each day helps as well, for those doing Fri or Sat shooting. I personally don't have a problem with proxies for what it's worth, but when you stand there and watch one guy go to the table six times before you get to go, it is annoying. Same thing with being first A and not getting to the table before all the really good stuff is gone. But guess what? First Is worth a plaque.... It's order of finish that matters, if you don't like your prize, quit "bracket " racing in Class and improve your overall finish. I do agree whatever's the method for handing out prizes, it should be clearly communicated ahead of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) If you want to be rewarded for work, go to your job. If you want to be rewarded for shooting, then stop whining and convince the people that actually donate the prizes that they should give them to you, and that doing so makes good business sense for them and for the match directors. Or put on your own match and make your own rules. I think it's ironic that you mention atlas shrugged (which is crap writing, btw) while you complain about not getting your fair share of free stuff. At what point did I ask for something that I haven't earned? Shooting is a hobby, not a job. You don't 'earn' anything from shooting. The prize table only exists as a marketing/business decision of the match director and the sponsors. It's their stuff to distribute as they see fit. Edited June 10, 2013 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I agree with the proxy for pickup. Also agree with the post above regarding the prize table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) The sponsors donate stuff to get their name out there and to help promote their business and the match. By giving them out random you have a better shot at doing that as generally if the top guys get one it ends up on the forums immediately. The average shooter gets one and he's talking on the forums and giving the sponsor support and if they need to buy stuff they go to who supports the sport which helps their business. If they offer the nice prizes up for drawing etc it also helps entice people to shoot the match as they have a chance at one of them. If its top in division everyone can pretty much guess who's walking away with it before the match even starts or at least between a couple shooters. That doesn't entice anyone to shoot the match unless your that person Edited June 10, 2013 by EkuJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 this thread is stickey already I have been re-reading the thread and I am mostly lost.however,this line caught my attention...I quote "Plaques, trophies and girls go by order of finish" What?! Y'all are handing out girls or trophies? If so, I will do my best to get to Space City next time.... and win... miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradGannaway Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 The sponsors donate stuff to get their name out there and to help promote their business and the match. By giving them out random you have a better shot at doing that as generally if the top guys get one it ends up on the forums immediately. The average shooter gets one and he's talking on the forums and giving the sponsor support and if they need to buy stuff they go to who supports the sport which helps their business. If they offer the nice prizes up for drawing etc it also helps entice people to shoot the match as they have a chance at one of them. If its top in division everyone can pretty much guess who's walking away with it before the match even starts or at least between a couple shooters. That doesn't entice anyone to shoot the match unless your that person As a business owner who puts tens of thousands of dollars on prize tables a year........THIS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 The sponsors donate stuff to get their name out there and to help promote their business and the match. By giving them out random you have a better shot at doing that as generally if the top guys get one it ends up on the forums immediately. The average shooter gets one and he's talking on the forums and giving the sponsor support and if they need to buy stuff they go to who supports the sport which helps their business. If they offer the nice prizes up for drawing etc it also helps entice people to shoot the match as they have a chance at one of them. If its top in division everyone can pretty much guess who's walking away with it before the match even starts or at least between a couple shooters. That doesn't entice anyone to shoot the match unless your that person As a business owner who puts tens of thousands of dollars on prize tables a year........THIS! I finished 3rd in our local IDPA match this week. I believe I *earned* some custom hearing protection. When can you send it to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTMaddox Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 [i think it's ironic that you mention atlas shrugged (which is crap writing, btw) while you complain about not getting your fair share of free stuff. Ironic indeed, but the Ayn Rand bashing is just going too far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Sorry this one got big quick. I was on vacation. FYI... Other moderators cleaned up some posts in the thread. (So, if you are reading this and wondering what is going on...you proably missed it already.) The mulitple accounts and the classified thing have been addressed, as well as some of the name calling. (suspensions). - There are many that dogpiled onto the thread. Don't. If something is not in line with the rules here, contact a Moderator. Let the Moderators deal with it. - Another point here is that we don't name names when we speak on issues. You can discuss an issue without names. We've been doing it for years. Reason bieng, it's a small world and everybody wants to defend their buddies. We don't want or need the angst. Kyle F. Forum Administrator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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