EEH Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 On a stage recently 22 rounds paper and steel,gun unloaded on barrel all ammo on barrel on signal engage targete as you see them. question--what do you do with your hands ?? do can you hold them right over the gun but don't touch ?? or do they have to be at sides ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) 8.2.2 .... Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. ... Edited June 2, 2013 by wide45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Depends on how it's written: Start Position: "in box A" -- go with what Rich said.... Once you start stipulating things however, such as: "Standing behind barrel, toes touching XXs." I'd argue that since it's otherwise specified, but doesn't include a hand position that anything that isn't touching gear is allowable.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffer Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Unless specified or demonstrated, it is as per 8.2.2 and demonstrated by Appendix E3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Demonstrated? - sorry but I can't agree with this - the what's written in the WSB is what you follow. I think NIK hit it best - if the WSB has a start position - toes on X's standing behind barrel - then I'm free to do what I want with my hands. You gave me a start position and left my hands to be where I want by not stating a specific place for it. You can't pick and chose parts of 8.2.2 to use. It says "Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides." Well you specified where I stand, facing where, and so forth - so it was in my opinion - otherwise specified. Edited June 2, 2013 by bsdubois00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 The original post makes no mention of where you stand or where you were facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I was agreeing with Nik in saying that if the WSB states a position - 8.2.2 is not valid. If NO position is referenced 8.2.2 is pretty clear what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Demonstrated? - sorry but I can't agree with this - the what's written in the WSB is what you follow. Demonstrated sometimes comes up when there's an odd start position, or when the first squad consists of gamers, who want to creatively interpret "hands flat on XXs." Once a start position is demonstrated during a walkthrough, it needs to be demonstrated during every walkthrough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 We started most of the squad with hands by sides. Can't say all because I did not see all. Some loose interpretations of "standing" as some people took a bit wide stance to prepare for the first shot (directly in front of you thru a low barrel). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 But still all you have to follow is WSB - if the RO is showing something different or trying to demonstrate I would call the RM immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 The WSB said "standing completely behind the barrel". Nothing more. That's why the original question was What do you do with hands in the absence of the WSB specifying. The answer is 8.2.2 "arms hanging naturally at sides". As I stated, my squad did hands by sides for everyone I am aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I would put hands anywhere. They gave a starting position just not a complete one. Not your fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glefos Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 see glossary: start position = location, position & stance All four terms are defined there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I would put hands anywhere. They gave a starting position just not a complete one. Not your fault. dude they did not specify where the hands go, so off to the default position we go. now if it said hands above head then then the hands go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I'm with Nik and Brandon on this one. Once you start specifying things, you better cover all of your bases. Once you state "standing behind barrel" you've met the "otherwise specified" clause. I'm not saying I like this rule, but I don't see any other way to interpret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 A few similar topics from the past. I think there's more but these are the ones I found. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=161467 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=138169 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 You can't pick and chose certain parts of the rule to use. The rule states once you specify otherwise you have met the requirements of 8.2.2 Area 4 last year had a stage where your gun started on a table. In the first posted WSB there was no mention of where your hands were - before the match started they specified a position of the hands. Why do you think this was? It was to prevent people from putting their hands right on top of the gun but not touching. If 8.2.2 was in play - I doubt the RM/MD would have changed the WSB on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 You can't pick and chose certain parts of the rule to use. The rule states once you specify otherwise you have met the requirements of 8.2.2 Nah. Reread it. Like this... Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must... - stand erect, - facing downrange, - with arms hanging naturally by the sides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 But its not exactly written like that. It can be read BOTH ways. But I read it as: Default is "standing erect, facing downrange, with arms nat. at sides" BUT otherwise specified means you say something other than that. The way its written the above quoted part can be considered a position and by stating "behind barrel, toes on X's" you stated a NEW start position. Also - if I put my hands on top of the gun (not touching) and the RO starts me - he obviously felt I was in a suitable position right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 But still all you have to follow is WSB - if the RO is showing something different or trying to demonstrate I would call the RM immediately.And if it's a match I'm RMing, you'd likely hear "yup, he's showing you the correct start position," as we would have covered that during the staff walkthrough. And my RO wouldn't start you until you complied with his interpretation.... :-) And believe me, I'm a fan of simplicity, especially when running a multi-day match, so we're not likely to run into that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I 100% agree - you don't want anyone to "game" the stage - write thorough WSB's and you solve about 99% of all issues out there. You want me to put my hands someplace - SAY SO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 You can't pick and chose certain parts of the rule to use. The rule states once you specify otherwise you have met the requirements of 8.2.2 Nah. Reread it. Like this... Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must... - stand erect, - facing downrange, - with arms hanging naturally by the sides Kyle, I'll disagree. You want the hands to be someplace specific, like at sides, for a table start? It's not that hard to write into the WSB..... If you don't write it, and I'm running your stage all weekend, I'll let them do what they want to.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I assume we have a default start position so we dont have to write a book in the wsb. but yore saying as soon as i say starting in box a , everythings out the window. why have a default position if I have to spell that position out ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffer Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Right. At the risk of stating the obvious, and assuming we're not talking about the default start position, which is really what the OP was. If the start position is specified in the WSB, then that is what it is (demonstrated or not). If the WSB omits to mention hand position, then you're free to put your hands wherever you like, subject to the rules. If the start position is demonstrated, in order to clarify the WSB description, and is contrary to your interpretation of the WSB, you can seek further clarity from the RM. If the start position isn't demonstrated, you are still free to interpret the start position as you wish, and either the RO won't start you, in which case you can consult the RM, or your action will be fine, or it may be declared a Forbidden Action. Let me also be clear, no RO would intentionally demonstrate a start position that is not in the WSB. So if hands are not specified, he isn't going to demonstrate a hand position. He may demonstrate a location or position, but not emphasise stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saffer Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 To be clear; demonstrating a start position isn't part of the USPSA rulebook, but is common practice, to clarify a WSB. You're still free to argue your point. If, however, you participate in IPSC, which you may do in Frostproof, FL, 2014, Rule 3.2.2 includes demonstration as part of the stage briefing. That eliminates any arguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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