WSB--what to do with hands

[Flexmoney]

It's not that hard to write into the WSB.....

I agree, but that is not really the question.

[Coach]

But still all you have to follow is WSB - if the RO is showing something different or trying to demonstrate I would call the RM immediately.

I did this at Single Stack Nationals and the RM sided with me. The system is not perfect but it works more often than not.

As a match director I am leaning toward doing more starts with hands on marks. The reason being that hands relaxed at sides seems to be getting abused more and more all the time. hands cupped beneath the grip of a gun is relaxed at sides to some folks.

[jbc98c]

The basic answer is, though, because the WSB did not state a hand position while creating a new start position, then you are free to do what you like. There is a reason every classifier WSB explicitly states the start position.

[JAFO]

To get a clarification, 8.2.2 says that unless I state otherwise, The default is "...stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides." That describes the default posture, direction, and hand position. I don't see why, by stating the physical place on the stage where you start (eg, in Box A, toes on X's, etc), the shooter is removed from the default posture, direction, and hand position.

Maybe I'm misreading some of the above posts, but are people implying that 8.2.2 was intended to cover the physical start position (to mean place) as well? I've never read a WSB that didn't specify where you start (with the exception of starting anywhere inside/outside the shooting area), but I've seen plenty that didn't specify posture, direction, and/or hand position. In those cases, the default of 8.2.2 was used.

[38SuperDub]

Let me ask this

How many times has a direction not been given in the wsb and people are allowed to start facing the direction they intend to go?

How is this any different than hands?

[JAFO]

Honestly, I can't remember reading one that didn't state a direction. I'd guess that more shooters are started facing in a direction liberally considered "downrange" than those allowed to start with their hands not at their sides. I think hand position is typically paid more attention than direction.

Having said that, if I state "facing downrange," I've only put the default in print on the WSB, I haven't specified anything outside of the default that should allow the shooter to put their hands wherever they choose. I haven't stated otherwise.

I agree with your point that once I start dictating a seated start, facing uprange, hands on head, etc, I had better cover all three bases. My question was pertaining to your "toes on X's" example. Stating where on the stage to start isn't specifiying one of the defaults in 8.2.2.

Edited June 3, 2013 by JAFO

[38SuperDub]

So if "toes on X's facing downrange" was the start position - hands would be allowed anyplace?

[Sin-ster]

Honestly, I can't remember reading one that didn't state a direction.

I see a TON of "standing inside shooting area, heels on Xs, hands relaxed at sides". (Or similar things that dictate foot position/location AND hand location, but not what direction one was facing.)

[JAFO]

So if "toes on X's facing downrange" was the start position - hands would be allowed anyplace?

No. Facing downrange is the default starting position. Nothing has been stated otherwise, so the shooter follows the default position.

Same goes with Bo's example of heels on X's, hands relaxed at sides. Relaxed at sides is the default position, so standing erect and facing downrange should still be followed. Nothing in 8.2.2 says the WSB can't define where you stand and still have you in the default start position wrt posture, direction, and hands.

Edited June 3, 2013 by JAFO

[38SuperDub]

I've NEVER seen a WSB that says "toes on marks facing anyway you want" but I've seen a ton of WSB's that say "Toes on marks" and shooters are allowed to start facing any way they want.

[latech15]

Of all of the rules that I have seen you argue, Brandon, I think we have finally found one that you make a compelling argument on.

I am not going to offer an opinion, because I have never thought about the possibility of being able to start other than the default position. Your argument seems sound and if you are correct, it will change the way I do things. I will be anxiously awaiting input from NROI on this one.

[JAFO]

The way I'm reading 8.2.2, they should be required to face downrange in your example. You guys have been to a lot more matches than I have, so I don't doubt what you're seeing. But it seems to me that the shooter shouldn't be allowed to start unless they are in either the default posture, direction, and hand position, or in the otherwise specified one. If any one of those three position items is otherwise specified, then they'd better specify all three or you get to do what you want with any that aren't.

But if all they state on the WSB is one or all of these:

"...standing (erect), facing downrange, hands relaxed at sides..."

Those are the default positions and shouldn't be considered as being otherwise specified.

[ac4wordplay]

"Facing uprange" is defined in the glossary.

Is 'facing downrange' the 180 degree equivalent?

Or, is 'facing downrange' simply any position that =/= "facing uprange"?

Or is it...?

How do you know? How can you defend the position?

[JAFO]

That's actually a good question. I hadn't thought about that, since the original line of thought focused on the hands.

Searching "downrange" or "down range" in the rulebook only yields a few uses (muzzle direction during MR, malfunction clearance, ULSC, and DQ for USGH under 10.5.6), and none of them define it. I don't think you could cite a rule for a specific direction downrange. Anything that doesn't break 180 degrees would seem to qualify.

[ima45dv8]

I don't think a location is the same as a stance/position.

If I write a WSB stating "Standing with toes on X's", I've only specified the location to begin the CoF. I haven't defined any variance from the default position listed in the rulebook. If I do specify something different (i.e., sitting, holding an ammo can in the weak hand, hands in RO's pockets, etc.), then everything I don't define is fair game.

[CZinSC]

"Facing uprange" is defined in the glossary.

Is 'facing downrange' the 180 degree equivalent?

Or, is 'facing downrange' simply any position that =/= "facing uprange"?

Or is it...?

How do you know? How can you defend the position?

The way i understand it, and the way i make the call is that Facing uprange is defined, like you said. Facing downrange is not. If there is a target at the 179* mark, I will let the competitor face that target, because that target is downrange.

Until someone can quote me a rule otherwise, that is the way I will call it.

[Nik Habicht]

Honestly, I can't remember reading one that didn't state a direction. I'd guess that more shooters are started facing in a direction liberally considered "downrange" than those allowed to start with their hands not at their sides. I think hand position is typically paid more attention than direction.

Having said that, if I state "facing downrange," I've only put the default in print on the WSB, I haven't specified anything outside of the default that should allow the shooter to put their hands wherever they choose. I haven't stated otherwise.

I agree with your point that once I start dictating a seated start, facing uprange, hands on head, etc, I had better cover all three bases. My question was pertaining to your "toes on X's" example. Stating where on the stage to start isn't specifiying one of the defaults in 8.2.2.

Depends on how it's worded, right? If the XXs are on the rearmost end of the FFZ, and the WSB states "Standing in FFZ, toes on XXs" then that start requirement makes it impossible for the shooter to face downrange -- sideways might be possible with creative leg positioning....

Generally speaking as a stage designer and match official, if I really care about the start position, I'll specify it perfectly, even if that means writing half a paragraph. But I'm just likely to not care, and to write it as "Standing anywhere in FFZ, facing any direction of the shooter's choice." I'm perfectly ok with folks gaming the start position on those stages....

It can be fun to watch....

[Sin-ster]

The way i understand it, and the way i make the call is that Facing uprange is defined, like you said. Facing downrange is not. If there is a target at the 179* mark, I will let the competitor face that target, because that target is downrange.

Until someone can quote me a rule otherwise, that is the way I will call it.

I agree with that interpretation.

However, in this case, the most important thing is that the start position be enforced equitably (and equally) for all competitors that run that stage. If you're going to make even ONE completely square up with the back berm, you have to make sure EVERYONE does it. This includes shoulder orientation, hip orientation-- I've even seen some people correct a shooter's head position.

Which is fine, so long as it's consistent.

The problem is... Who the Hell can ensure that consistency? Even if the same RO ran every shooter for the whole match, the possibility exists for some variance in "what he lets someone get away with"-- unless it's a VERY strict interpretation/enforcement of the rule. (And that doesn't consider staff shooting on Fridays, multiple ROs with the timer across the whole match, etc.)

Thus, the very obvious solution (for body orientation AND hand position) is to explicitly dictate it in the WSB. I'm not sure what's so hard about that, honestly.

And if you don't... Including the loose usage of "downrange"... Then expect your savvy shooters to take advantage-- and gripe (rightfully so) if your ROs let GM-x get away with it, but not B-class them.

[Nik Habicht]

That's exactly why I like either tight specificity, or shooter's choice.....

[JAFO]

I see your point about there no being absolutes. There will almost always be some permutation that doesn't fit, which is the reason for a lot of the rules discussions here.

[glefos]

I don't think a location is the same as a stance/position.

If I write a WSB stating "Standing with toes on X's", I've only specified the location to begin the CoF. I haven't defined any variance from the default position listed in the rulebook. If I do specify something different (i.e., sitting, holding an ammo can in the weak hand, hands in RO's pockets, etc.), then everything I don't define is fair game.

Spot on.

From the rulebook:

Glossary

Throughout these rules, the following definitions apply:

Start position . . . . . . . . .The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the “Start signal”.

Location . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ageographical place within a course of fire.

Stance . . . . . . . . . . .The physical presentation of a person’s limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.).

Shooting position . . . .The physical presentation of a person’s body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone).

8.2.2 - ...Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides....

[chevyoneton]

I don't think a location is the same as a stance/position.

If I write a WSB stating "Standing with toes on X's", I've only specified the location to begin the CoF. I haven't defined any variance from the default position listed in the rulebook. If I do specify something different (i.e., sitting, holding an ammo can in the weak hand, hands in RO's pockets, etc.), then everything I don't define is fair game.

Exactly, just because the WSB says stand behind barrel, in box A, etc, it does not change the default position. I am however going to have to give some thought to your "hands in RO's pockets" start position. I might argue that one if I ever saw it. We always define hand position on our stage briefings, because all our stage designers learned from the same guy. Interestingly, I had never thought that somebody might want to face uprange when "toes on XX's" or "heels on XX's" is specified. I guess there is always one out there........