IDPA vs USPSA

[hopalong]

I know this may be kind of touchy as per the forum rules but shooting is shooting and I am wondering how to get the numbers up in USPSA as they are in IDPA

I shoot both and enjoy shooting both they are good practice and actually go hand in hand if you do it right.

If you go to an IDPA match you go knowing the rules, play by those rules and if you forget and do something stupid like shooting in the open and not using cover then yes you are going to get dinged with a penaltie that is the rules play by them.

And in USPSA there is no rule that says you can't use cover to shoot from it just takes a little longer to finish the stages that way.

What I want to know is what can USPSA do or needs to do to get more intrest from the revolver shooters, it is quite evident that they are missing the boat just look at the numbers of Revolver shooters from the USPSA nationals (17) and IDPA Nationals (58)

RedMist 10 do you shoot both or only IDPA? (using you as an example if you don't mind)

HOPALONG

[Bill Nesbitt]

The answer is stage design.

I shoot both. I used to shoot revolver a little in USPSA as far back as 1984. When IDPA started in 1997, all the local clubs switched from USPSA to IDPA. I just started back shooting USPSA in the last couple of years.

Let me tell you, things have changed in USPSA stage design. Freestyle baby. The Area 5 this year was a good example of revolver friendly stage design. Most stages gave revolvers a chance to reload on the move. It took more experience than I currently have to figure it out but Jerry M didn't seem to have any problems. Buckeye Blast was good also. If all the stages have you shoot 8 shots here then 8 shots over there then revolver shooters will get discouraged.

In IDPA the maximum number of rounds for a string is 18. This can often figure out to be pretty revolver friendly.

I think it is possible for a revolver shooter to win HOA at an IDPA match but it will never happen in USPSA unless the skill levels are very different.

I repeat; Stage Design.

Bill Nesbitt

[Jake Di Vita]

Well two reasons there is such a better turn out for wheel guns at IDPA nationals is because A: 18 round limit on stages and B: Maximum of 6 rounds from each position.

It is just a lot more difficult and disheartening to shoot a revolver in USPSA.

[Flexmoney]

I split off some of the "anti" talk so that we could re-open this thread.

Please keep the posts positive and helpful. This isn't the place to groan and moan.

Thanks,

Kyle F.

Administrator

[Bill Nesbitt]

Thanks Flex.

Jake, each start in IDPA is limited to a max of 18 rounds. It can be any amount from 1 to 18 shots. There is no rule on how many rounds from each shooting position. More and more IDPA stage designers are designing freestyle stages. Here is the problem, solve it while obeying IDPA rules such as shooting while moving to cover and/or from cover, using IDPA reloads etc.

But that still doesn't solve the problem of few revolver shooters at USPSA matches.

I still say it is stage design.

Bill Nesbitt

[desmark6]

I think the bottom line is that when someone starts shooting a revolver it is because they are seeking a greater challenge. Sure the stage designs for USPSA are considerably more difficult with a revolver, but isn't that what we wanted!? The most important thing to remember is that we are only competing against other revolvers so it isn't that big of a deal. ( If you choose to shoot a 7 or 8 shot revo in production thats another story). More then stage design I think what is hurting the revolver numbers is the negative press they always receive. Revo's can't do this, can't do that, "they" don't like us. PHOOEY!! Just train hard and get back down to the basics, revolvers are fun and challenging and that is why we shoot them.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I shot both games with a revolver. I prefer IDPA but only because of the lower round count. I do not like the mandatory kneeling from behind cover in IDPA but that is about all.

I enjoy the higher round count USPSA stages but they are just not "revolver friendly". Many times I find them very frustrating

I do not think that USPSA needs a change regarding this, I just need to change my mind set when I shoot it. I took this year off from USPSA because of leg trouble but since I graduated from Therapy today, and now have a good list of stretching excercises to keep the knees functioning, I will probably be back to USPSA in the spring, revolver and all.

As far as Why do I shoot a revolver???? Habit I guess (since about 1970). I think it makes me think a little more and causes the troubles of daily life to be replaced with the pure frustration of solving the scenarios with a tool that everyone sees as outdated. I come away from a match knowing I had a good time.

Regards,

[hopalong]

First of all,

Thanks Flex !!

I started shooting in 2001 and started with a limited gun, and there was no IDPA around here in the North MS/ South west TN area at the time.

about 2002 our club started shooting IDPA and I had picked up a Ruger GP 100 4 inch gun so I shot it occaionally at an IDPA match but still concentrated on the Limited gun and shot it in both. but did really well with the ruger

when I made A Limited I decided to shoot revolver just to get the skills up to par or close to the Limited gun, I knew going in that USPSA stages are not very revolver friendly unless you do it yourself but I also knew there were no others shooting one around here and besides it did not matter, I was getting trigger time in (and plenty of reloads)

After I started shooting revolver exclusively in November of 2003 I have talked a few of the guys shooting IDPA revo to shoot USPSA a few times and except for the couple who do not think that shooting both is OK they have liked it and have actually Joined USPSA and have classified with theirs.

we have a core of shooters in our club that shoot both, and some that shoot one or the other only, they have tried the other types but the biggest reason I hear from them is that the rules of one confuse them when they try to shoot the other.

the next most often excuse I hear from them is that they only have time to shoot one discipline and choose IDPA for I think they think it is less confusing than USPSA. ( I KNOW the scoring system freaks them out when they can't keep track of their score like they do in IDPA

At larger (USPSA) matches I always hear from the auto shooters that they are sorry the stages are not revolver friendly, my response is " That is OK, I am not shooting against autos and if I have to make a Standing reload so will the others so there is no problem with that".

Around here another reason I think IDPA is more popular with Revolver shooters is that a match usually is less than 100 rounds where our USPSA matchs usually are 100 + and if you go to Memphis it is 200+( yes that is a club match and they do it twice a month).

A friend of mine went to the IDPA nationals and he told me he really practiced up for it and went through 500 rounds the week before, I told him that I went through 3,000 the 10 days before USPSA Nationals and he liked to had a cow and said that is almost half of what I shoot a year.

I agree with Desmark6, when a person picks up a revolver he is looking for a challenge ( if only personaly like mine ) but once I started shooting the wheel gun I have found it to be really fun and enjoyable.

I don't know how many USPSA masters there are out there but I do know there were 10 or better at the IDPA nationals and 58 revovler shooters total when at the USPSA nationals there were 1 GM 1 A 14 B and 1 D ----- 2 classes of revolver shooters at IDPA Nationals totaled more than the whole USPSA nationals.

I do know that it is not very easy to make Master with a Revo in IDPA and it takes good skill to do so, I am still an Expert but have not tried the classifier in a while(5 months or so) but I think I could make the mark now if I shot one but our club has ran their two for the year already.

Maybe if there were some revolver only matches scattered around to get some participation within the ranks, I don't know maybe an Area revolver only match in all the areas and then an unofficial "Revolver Nationals" to show USPSA leadership that there is more intrest out there than they think?.

I have come to really enjoy shooting the wheel gun, and still enjoy shooting the autos but this thing of good participation in one shooting discipline and not another that is not that much different really puzzles me.

And maybe we need to talk USPSA into an OPEN REVOLVER division to help get the numbers up???? just an idea or two mixed in with a bunch of junk but you have to start somewhere or you will never start (getting more shooters)

Sam Keen aka HOPALONG

Sorry about the long post

[firewalker]

I started shooting IDPA because thats all that was offered in my area. Since then i shoot USPSA monthly with a revolver. Dont get me wrong i love both sports. I hope that as we shoot more. revolver shooters on the sidelines will become encouraged and join our ranks. The major factor that i shoot 1 USPSA match a month, and 4 IDPA matches a month, is we have 4 clubs (IDPA) with in a hour of here, and 1 USPSA club

my .02 Frederick

[shred]

I think there's a lack of revolver participation at the top levels because you have the option of shooting a different gun and maybe winning the division, or coming in second to Jerry. Somebody practically unbeatable at the top of the heap discourages some people into other divisions, I'm sure, especially if it's a "Pick one gun only" Nationals like this year.

[firewalker]

I think there's a lack of revolver participation at the top levels because you have the option of shooting a different gun and maybe winning the division, or coming in second to Jerry.  Somebody practically unbeatable at the top of the heap discourages some people into other divisions, I'm sure, especially if it's a "Pick one gun only" Nationals like this year.

That should encourage us Shred Maybe i look at my revolver shooting differently, At AR winter classic I had the privildge of being splattered by Jerry (but i was a SSR Sharpshooter) He was not at Mid south regionals I WON SSR Champion , at Ark state this year Jerry splattered me again (I was SSR Expert) This year was my first nationals and i made many mistakes but survived as a (SSR Master) He still splattered me.....But I am getting better I think as shooters see that revolver shooting is getting popular again we will see more folks shooting revolvers.

Frederick

[Bubber]

Sam,

I would love to compete against other open revolver shooters in an USPSA match. As it was I would compete in Open in A class at any match where I would take my Race Revo. I am now shooting my 625 in USPSA Local matches to see how I actually rank against other Revolver shooters. And that can only be done by shooting classifiers because where I shoot I am usually the only Revo there. I do not agree that in a match I ONLY shoot against other revo shooters. Maybe it is just my mindset because before ther were divisions in USPSA your score was still based on the HOA. I would beat a few auto shooters but they were usually the lesser experienced shooters and sometimes the fast guy who just fell over the edge. I hardly shoot any major matches anymore due to the Match fees. And also the time involved in the match. I do however shoot the IRC each year, but it is more a vacation than a Match. I go to see old friends and to test my ever so depleting skills with my Revo. And to echo Bill N's post it is stage design. It doesn't have to be 6 and move but create a stage where if you can engage more than six hit make it at a cost, ie harder shots more chance of a penalty and then an alternate place to make the same shot. It can be done but most people would think "why bother thy won't be that many revo shooters anyway." Maybe not but it still would be a challenge for any shooter. Well I have ramble enough and thanx Flex wanted to comment on Sam's post.

[redmist10]

Excellent post Hopalong!

In 2001 I started shooting IDPA with a Beretta 96D, switched to the .45 acp Colt MK IV and piddled with both for about a year.

That winter some sicko (aka. my brother-in-law) thought it would be a neat trick to try shooting revolver (probably thought it would be easy after watching Bill for a year....boy were we wrong.)

2002-2004 I have been creeping my way from MM to EX and I really enjoy the challenge. "Revolver friendly" they say.....nothing is revolver friendly. 18 round stages are still three strings of six and SIX ONLY. If you miss or pull a shot low you have just added a reload and another shot - unless you want the low points or penalty. Even 8 round bottom feeders have two to play with.

I like it because it isn't easy and I believe it makes me a better shooter, IMHO. You wouldn't see as many 3-gun Masters in IDPA if it were easy. You wouldn't see just one GM in USPSA. Someday (and it may be a long way off) there will be two, then three. It is evolution of the sports.....REVOlution.

The proposed "all revolver match" would be great but I think the more shooters that show up and actually compete at IDPA and USPSA club and Area matches will have a greater affect. It is especially gratifying to see 50 shooters at a club match and be among the top 20 overall while shooting the revolver. You just KNOW those guys are looking at those scores wondering how the heck that strange revolver guy is doing that with SIX freaking rounds!

That's why I like it. I can't imagine what it feels like to be in the top ten or the top five....but I'm working on it.

It seems like every major IDPA match we attend there are more revolver guys. We like that. That means we're making an impact. We're being noticed and the trend will grow. IDPA and USPSA officials will only take notice as the popularity grows and forces them to revise what needs fixed. Just look at everything USPSA is doing to win back some of the IDPA popularity. They notice......drag out the revolver. You won't be alone.

[rhino]

Since we have a revolver only division, it still escapes me why it matters whether or not USPSA courses are "revolver friendly." If you're only competing against other wheel gunners, why does it matter?

I understand that it really does matter in the minds of people who won't shoot revolvers for that reason, but I don't understand the mindset.

It's also a lot easier to go fast with a self-loader than it is a revolver for most people. As we know, USPSA shooters love to go fast, fast, fast, often without regard for accuracy. Revolvers are less amenable to the speed at all costs mentality, especially without a lot of dedicated practice in the manipulations.

Field courses are never going to be "fair" for slow people. Low ports are never going to be "fair" to tall people. Typical USPSA matches are never going to be "fair" to revolver shooters. That's just the way things are.

I remain unconvinced why it matters whether or not more people choose to shoot revolvers. It certainly matters less than overall numbers of regular participants, regardless of division or equipment.

[revchuck]

I usually shoot revolver in IDPA, and plan to shoot Production in USPSA. My reasoning is this: When I reload a round gun, the barrel goes vertical, right up to (and maybe a hair past) the 180. Since the cylinder is open, there's no safety issue, but I don't want to go somewhere and get DQed after having fired just six rounds.

In theory, I could learn to reload with the barrel horizontal, but I'm coordinationally challenged. I'd rather use just one way, and the way I do it seems more reliable (I don't shoot MC guns). I'm one of those dinosaurs who actually shoot their carry guns.

Besides, I have all those ten round mags for my Beretta...

[hopalong]

Rhino,

For me it does not matter if a course is revolver friendly or not, I picked my poison I will use it. but for the just starting or those experimenting it is kind of frustrating to shoot stages where you have to make timely flat footed reloads.

I do agree with you about it not mattering about the numbers of people shoot revolvers or not as long as they are out shooting, BUT ( I think you are shooting production now right?) if you showed up to your semi-local match and everyone that normally is there shows and some new faces too but they all decide to shoot Limited instead of the normal production shooters that shoot with you shooting the same style as you (reloads ect.) they now only have to reload once or not at all and there you are still having to make yours, now you have to figure out the stages all by yourself, and can't watch anyone else to see if they figured something out a little better, ect. these are things we all work on at matches that help get us to the next level and if there are no others there the next level is farther and harder to get to.

Revchuck,

I reload Like Jerry M, and when I push the ejector I turn the gun up like you do, at first I had trouble but with practice I learned to keep the muzzle obviously shy of the 180. and if it happens it happens pay a little more attention to what you are doing. I also do the same style reload with my Gp 100 and use Safariland comp 2 loaders they also find the hole pretty quick like moon clips you only have to push them after they get in there.

Keep the suggestions coming maybe we will find some that will work/help

Hopalong