Tarheel 3 Gun vs. USPSA Multi Gun Nationals

[Jesse Tischauser]

I was just browsing this weekends scores and notices that the big Tarheel 3 Gun match had roughly twcie the Shooters in Tac Optics as compared to USPSA Nationals.

What do you think about that? I was shocked! Actually Tarheel had a few more TO shooters than the big Texas Multi Gun that was shot last week as well.

More locals available in NC? Who has shot them both? What's the differences?

Edited April 28, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[Blockhead]

I can't speak to the Tarheel match but I worked TXMG last week and I had a lot of involvement in the USPSA MG Nat's from 2009-2012. I would've liked to do both matches this year but couldn't swing it.

1) I think the MG Nat's was a more technical match than TXMG in that there were more activated and moving targets and more complicated movement problems.

2) TXMG uses a lot of fixed steel for 60-125 yd. rifle targets where the Nat's didn't have as many targets at those ranges but had more close-in paper.

3) TXMG was probably more physically challenging than past MG Nat's.

4) TXMG probably had more guns and higher total $$$ on the prize table.

5) The majority of the shooters and staff I met at TXMG said they had not participated in a match outside of TX. My experience with MG Nat's was the complete opposite. The majority of the folks at MG Nat's regularly shoot other "Majors" around the country.

I'm not trying to say either match is "better" than the other but they are significantly different.

[STI91]

I haven't shot TXMG/USMGN but for reference, just the Tarheel MONTHLY match regularly has 100 - 150 shooters. Throw in that the Challenge is a major and also part of the 3GN series with a decent prize table and that might explain it.

[Jesse Tischauser]

No matter what the reason I think we can all agree that April has too many majors squished into it.

With so many big matches so close together we are seeing several of the top shooters choosing to attend their favorite major rather than all of them. Couple that with the fact that several top guys dont shoot 3 Gun Nation.

This leads me to believe the sport is still needing a true National Championship. Which match is going to throw down a National Championship of 15 stages with a nice mix of natural terrain and technical bay type stages first?

[LSnSC]

Its the only major in the Carolinas. Add that to the fact that the Tarheel guys put on one helluva match and for me, its a no brainer. Fly across county or shoot two hours from the house?

North and South Carolina are very gun friendly states with good economies and growing populations. We also have great weather this time of year. The powers that be should take notice. We have ALOT of shooters hungry for something more than club level matches.

[JFlowers]

Jesse,

The biggest challenge I see to a true "Championship" is getting three groups of people, who all want to protect their own turf, to play together.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jesse,

The biggest challenge I see to a true "Championship" is getting three groups of people, who all want to protect their own turf, to play together.

What 3 groups are you referring to?

[T Bacus]

Jesse,

The biggest challenge I see to a true "Championship" is getting three groups of people, who all want to protect their own turf, to play together.

What 3 groups are you referring to?

I would assume he meant USPSA, 3 Gun Nation and the Outlaw matches.

[JFlowers]

Sorry, I had more to say and then deleted it. Yes, I meant USPSA/IPSC, 3GN, and the independents. USPSA already has a "Multigun National Championship", 3GN has its on "Championship" and several of the independent matches could claim "championship" status by size and attendance. So getting all three parties to play together and recognize a single match as the true "National Championship" would be difficult. Not impossible, just difficult as all have their own agendas, priorities, etc.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Sorry, I had more to say and then deleted it. Yes, I meant USPSA/IPSC, 3GN, and the independents. USPSA already has a "Multigun National Championship", 3GN has its on "Championship" and several of the independent matches could claim "championship" status by size and attendance. So getting all three parties to play together and recognize a single match as the true "National Championship" would be difficult. Not impossible, just difficult as all have their own agendas, priorities, etc.

Yeah I agree. I don't think anyone is going to expect any of the 3 groups to all become one anytime soon which is great for all of us. My point was that no single match is inclusive of all the types of 3 gun out there nor does one match have the an outright set of awards, prizes, or shooter recognition that everyone can truly say if you win this match you are the best, period.

Rocky Mountain and ProAm have a ginnormous prize table, big bad natural terrain stages, huge shooter turnouts but RM3G lacks the technical bay shooting and ProAm isn't quite as BIG stage wise as RM3G.

I know one of these great ambitious MD's we have out there will make a go of it. The 2014 World 3 Gun that Denise and JJ ate putting on comes to mind. If they can handle a bunch of shooters and add some technical bay stages they just might do it. Their prize table is already there along with the awesome natural terrain stages with high rounf count rifle, pistol and shotgun stages.

[bunsen27]

Its the only major in the Carolinas. Add that to the fact that the Tarheel guys put on one helluva match and for me, its a no brainer. Fly across county or shoot two hours from the house?

North and South Carolina are very gun friendly states with good economies and growing populations. We also have great weather this time of year. The powers that be should take notice. We have ALOT of shooters hungry for something more than club level matches.

This last statement is very true! In addition to the Tarheel monthly matches T3G runs quarterly matches at two other ranges. All of these matches will be full. We also have a thriving USPSA and IDPA community in Raleigh. One of the monthly USPA pistol matches conflicts (1st Saturday) with the T3G monthly matches and is STILL able to draw 80-100 shooters per month. We have a LOT of active shooters in this region!

Combine that with the fact that Steve, Charles, and company design and put on an outstanding match on a phenominal piece of property that is barely 45 minutes from RDU and only 10 min off of US1. Lots of shooters in the region and a match location that is very accessible from near and far when it's not too hot yet, and you get a tremendous match turn out.

[T Bacus]

Was not last years FN match somewhat a balance of styles? Stages 1-3 were natural terrain, 4-6 were square range exercises and 8 and 9 again on natural terrain.

[Jesse Tischauser]

FNH has a feel all its own if you ask me. Not really like the one nationals I shot in 2011.

[Dan Sierpina]

Sounds like Jesse wants to be a match director!

[Jesse Tischauser]

Sounds like Jesse wants to be a match director!

Why would it sound like that?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Sounds like Jesse wants to be a match director!

Why would it sound like that? I'm simply interested in how 3 gun is evolving from the match design to the shooter preferences etc.

If my comments sound critical of any particular match that's not my intent.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[Dan Sierpina]

I guess the "technical bay shooting" comment makes it sound critical. Not every match should be a pit match. FNH does give some of both, as Mr Bacus points out. All the matches follow the same pattern anually, so find a style you like and shoot those.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I used that term to try to describe USPSA nationals. I don't know how else to say it. Their stages at probably the trickiest there is when it comes to the technical IPSC type shooting where they challenge you with specialty targets and walls in confined spaces. Pretty much the exact opposite of say Rocky Mountain that challenges the shooter with high round could long diverse course of fire.

The FNH match has those 2-4 stages in bays but they don't have the sane elaborate walls and specialty targets like nationals. Larry's bay stages are best described from my stand point as In between the USPSA nationals an natural terrain. A lot like Texas Multi gun sorta kinda.

The point I was trying to make us that there isn't a match that does it all yet. 3GN is fast and close, USPSA and from what I've seen on video superstition mountain is the technical trickeration type stuff which requires fast feet and a faster gun.

Maybe a combination of everything isn't even possible but I'd live too see an eager MD try. So that we have every shooter in the country trying to get to the match to compete against everyone.

Right now it seems we are moving away from having everyone in the same place at the same time shooting it out.

[MarkCO]

Dan is probably on to something with his comment. But there is more to the story. 5 years ago, the "Outlaw matches" ruled to roost with USPSA a minor player with a lot of issues. Each match (there were like 6 or 7) was really unto itself an island. Several of those remain "on the map" purely due to venue, others due to history and others due to good quality.

Now, in mainline 3Gun, we have the Outlaw matches, USPSA matches and 3GunNation (well over 25 annually). There are 3 other organizations (including IDPA) trying to get into 3Gun, or some variation thereof, to further complicate matters). Outlaw matches that had never "sold-out" are full and gained sponsors purely due to the promotion of 3GN. There are MDs that are riding on the laurels of prior history, 3GN promotion and are pocketing a pretty substantial sum of money for 2 weeks worht of work. Many are taking the 100K plus of donated prizes and returning little, if anything to the sponsors and really not improving their match quality with the increased attendance. However, we constantly see these posts where such and such match was "The most awesome ever" when the people who have been shooting for years know the match really was a poor excuse for a match. How can we expect Remington, DPMS, Noveske, JP, Leupold, Stag, Burris, etc. to continue to put prizes on the tables when they get little if any ROI? Based on some conversations I have had with some marketing guys at some of the major companies over the last year, some of these companies are in the process of changing their focus for a variety of reasons. When the average guy spends $1000K plus to shoot a major, they should have quality!

But, the quality of some of the major outlaw matches has declined. You have folks like Cramblit who set a standard for sponsor promotion with the Pro-Am, but those standards are high, especially when the profit comes into play for many of the outlaw MDs. But TarHeel, as a relatively new match has made the effort to step up the quality which is one of the reasons we supported the match as a sponsor. The sponsors are starting to look at overall quality of the match and what the match does to promote them for their donations.

I understand why LaRue is no longer a title sponsor of a major, and it won't change the quality of their product nor their sales in reality. If a title sponsor can not realize increased sales for their $, why would they put prizes on the tables? TarHeel actively promotes their sponsors beyond just here on Enos and the sponsors can see that. The videos shooters make, the facebook and webpage hits etc. all favor the major matches that have upped the marketing presence for the sponsors.

I think in general, MDs, shooters and sponsors (3 hats I have been fortunate enough to wear) are going to have to start understanding all the dynamics at play in the sport of 3Gun. If we like the big prize tables and professional quality, then we (collectively) need to change and follow the models that promote the sport and the sponsors to the masses. If on the other hand, we want to fade back into the forest, then maybe the model some of the outlaw matches follow is the way to go. In reality, it will probably go both (or 6) ways over the next few years.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Dan is probably on to something with his comment. But there is more to the story. 5 years ago, the "Outlaw matches" ruled to roost with USPSA a minor player with a lot of issues. Each match (there were like 6 or 7) was really unto itself an island. Several of those remain "on the map" purely due to venue, others due to history and others due to good quality.

Now, in mainline 3Gun, we have the Outlaw matches, USPSA matches and 3GunNation (well over 25 annually). There are 3 other organizations (including IDPA) trying to get into 3Gun, or some variation thereof, to further complicate matters). Outlaw matches that had never "sold-out" are full and gained sponsors purely due to the promotion of 3GN. There are MDs that are riding on the laurels of prior history, 3GN promotion and are pocketing a pretty substantial sum of money for 2 weeks worht of work. Many are taking the 100K plus of donated prizes and returning little, if anything to the sponsors and really not improving their match quality with the increased attendance. However, we constantly see these posts where such and such match was "The most awesome ever" when the people who have been shooting for years know the match really was a poor excuse for a match. How can we expect Remington, DPMS, Noveske, JP, Leupold, Stag, Burris, etc. to continue to put prizes on the tables when they get little if any ROI? Based on some conversations I have had with some marketing guys at some of the major companies over the last year, some of these companies are in the process of changing their focus for a variety of reasons. When the average guy spends $1000K plus to shoot a major, they should have quality!

But, the quality of some of the major outlaw matches has declined. You have folks like Cramblit who set a standard for sponsor promotion with the Pro-Am, but those standards are high, especially when the profit comes into play for many of the outlaw MDs. But TarHeel, as a relatively new match has made the effort to step up the quality which is one of the reasons we supported the match as a sponsor. The sponsors are starting to look at overall quality of the match and what the match does to promote them for their donations.

I understand why LaRue is no longer a title sponsor of a major, and it won't change the quality of their product nor their sales in reality. If a title sponsor can not realize increased sales for their $, why would they put prizes on the tables? TarHeel actively promotes their sponsors beyond just here on Enos and the sponsors can see that. The videos shooters make, the facebook and webpage hits etc. all favor the major matches that have upped the marketing presence for the sponsors.

I think in general, MDs, shooters and sponsors (3 hats I have been fortunate enough to wear) are going to have to start understanding all the dynamics at play in the sport of 3Gun. If we like the big prize tables and professional quality, then we (collectively) need to change and follow the models that promote the sport and the sponsors to the masses. If on the other hand, we want to fade back into the forest, then maybe the model some of the outlaw matches follow is the way to go. In reality, it will probably go both (or 6) ways over the next few years.

Good point and well says Mark. Sponsors ROI should be a top priority especially if the match is turning a profit.

I wasn't so much concerned with prizes or sponsors when I asked my original question. I was looking for everyone's thoughts on a true National Championship 3 Gun match. Right now any match can claim its the one but there are top shooters skipping certain matches for various reasons. 3GN has the cash and TV but winning the $50k in a shoot off hardly dictates the declaration of a National Champ. Similarly USPSA is the organization with the largest membership which gives it credibility but attendance says otherwise.

What my personal goal is that someone like Cramblitt says you know what Jesse's right for once finally. Watch me put on the match that blows everyone's skirt up.m

PS those technical bay style matches are my favorite since I suck least at them. So the term couldn't be further from an insult.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[Dan Sierpina]

Maybe a combination of everything isn't even possible but I'd live too see an eager MD try. So that we have every shooter in the country trying to get to the match to compete against everyone.

This is what prompted my comment about you wanting to be a match director.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Maybe a combination of everything isn't even possible but I'd live too see an eager MD try. So that we have every shooter in the country trying to get to the match to compete against everyone.

This is what prompted my comment about you wanting to be a match director.

I think we all know that I have about enough experience to run a timer occasionally not run a match.

Just cause I want a true 1-12x scope doesn't mean I want to be an engineer.

But I get your point Dan.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

I've heard a rumbling or two along the lines of which you speak. There are some top tier competitors who do not shoot the Pro series. I also agree that the $50K winner is not necessarily the "top" 3Gunner, but the one who shot well in a format that is not totally representative of what 3Gunners typically enjoy or shoot...but it pays off big for the sponsors, so it is therefore okay with me to see the top 30 guys go out and lay waste to some plate racks and clays.

The USPSA ruleset and format is not what is wrong with the USPSA matches, it is other things...we will see if change is made or not. If not, the vacuum will be filled. The whole sport is still in the agitation mode...once we hit the spin cycle, I believe it will become clearer.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I've heard a rumbling or two along the lines of which you speak. There are some top tier competitors who do not shoot the Pro series. I also agree that the $50K winner is not necessarily the "top" 3Gunner, but the one who shot well in a format that is not totally representative of what 3Gunners typically enjoy or shoot...but it pays off big for the sponsors, so it is therefore okay with me to see the top 30 guys go out and lay waste to some plate racks and clays.

The USPSA ruleset and format is not what is wrong with the USPSA matches, it is other things...we will see if change is made or not. If not, the vacuum will be filled. The whole sport is still in the agitation mode...once we hit the spin cycle, I believe it will become clearer.

This all brings up another good question. Where will the Noveske Multi Gun match pop up next year? Hopefully it will happen later in the season. When it does

[MarkCO]

Well, the Noveske match won't be in CO. Looking at options...