TwoShot Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 As the topic says, I want to get into 3 gun. I have shot USPSA pistol in open division for many years. I want to join in the fun! Don't know why I am not interested in a tube gun, I'm just not. An R&R Saiga is a grand more than the Firebird TAC 12, figuring the value of the optic that comes with the Saiga. R&R told me today they had a 6 week backlog. Saiga mags seem to be less expensive. Firebird wouldn't give an estimated lead time to delivery, just said call and get your name on the list. While I won't say money is no object, I do believe in the old saying, "Buy once, Cry once." I am a lefty, if that makes a difference. I have heard good and bad on both the Saiga and the Akdal platforms. What are your experiences with these guns on reliability, recoill, maintenance and overall value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) R&R all the way. The AKDAL's are getting better but I still have not seen one make it through a match without an issue. They also kick a lot more. Shooting my friends Firebird AKDAL was like shooting my Benelli M2 except it kicked more. My Saiga shoots as soft as I have ever felt a shotgun. Robert at R&R does a great job. I used my R&R Saiga to come in 8th in Open at the recent Surefire Multigun match in Texas. I love that shotgun. Just my opinion some on here run the AKDAl and love them as well. No matter what gun you get the main issue with mag fed shotguns is running ammo with stiff smooth hulls. I run Remington STX shells 3 dram 1 1/8 ounce of shot. Also with the Saiga don't over load the mags. You can put 13 rounds in the 12 round mags and 21 in the 20 rounders. Don't. It will cause malfunctions. I always count out the rounds as I load them. Also keep the gas piston clean and you will be a happy camper. Pat Edited April 25, 2013 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 *shrugs* YMMV, but I run an Akdal right now in Open and have had zero issues with it, once I broke it in. I did the work on it myself, as I didn't have the cash to get a Firebird and didn't want to wait. I swapped out the trigger, hammer, and piston and put the collapsible stock on it (Enidine hydraulic tube). I run the factory 10-round mags and have had no problems (knock on wood). I'm shooting Royal Buck, Fiocchi LE slugs, and Walmart burgundy bulk ammo thru it. It's not as soft as my Super 90, but it's pretty nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeAZ Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I have a "Jim" built Akdal w/ 15/10/5 rd mags I'll be posting for sale soon. (unexpected medical bills). I had a JM 930 but was just terrible about getting it reloaded.... The mags were a lot easier... mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrickxx Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I just jumped in with the shotgun I had the same dilemma I had a bone stock saiga that was hit or miss just picked up a firebird akdal so far I like the ambi safety and the charging handle well. We will see how it breaks in tomorrow. There's rumors floating around on the saiga forum of a project that firebirds working on but no time frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 last match both my friends AKDALS ran great. Both seem to have worked out what needed to get worked out. Glad they are happy. I ended up breaking one of my 20 round Saiga mags but was able to salvage it and make it a 17 round mag now. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 I have a Firebird Akdal and so does a friend of mine. They both went back and got the ramp mod and have been 100% with at least 3dr - 1 1/8 loads. Much lighter and they are iffy, but with those there are GTG. He got one of the new 18 round mags and it is awesome as well. I haven't been to a bunch of matches but I have yet to see a Saiga run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) I have a Firebird Akdal and so does a friend of mine. They both went back and got the ramp mod and have been 100% with at least 3dr - 1 1/8 loads. Much lighter and they are iffy, but with those there are GTG. He got one of the new 18 round mags and it is awesome as well. I haven't been to a bunch of matches but I have yet to see a Saiga run. We have 3 different shooters with R&R saigas here and they all run. Two shooters have AKDAL's and only at the last match have I seen both run. Check out my youtube channel if you want to see my Saiga running. I record nearly all of the matches I go to. Both guns seem to require the user to figure out what ammo will make them run the best although my Saiga now runs on pretty much anything. It was more finicky when it was new. The thing is not all Saigas are equal. R&R makes the best they are expensive but you get what you pay for. http://www.youtube.com/user/Alaskapopo Pat Edited April 30, 2013 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 My first open shotgun about 7 years ago was an S12. It was a home built and some days it ran great others not so great. I built another one and it did better but never perfect. It is and always has been getting mags tuned for the magwell on them. Never ponied up the bucks for the R&R but have seen them and while they run better I have seen an occasional hiccup. 3 years ago I got one of the very first Akdals out of the dealer sample shipment. That was before anyone did any work at all to them. When Firebird started doing customs mine was fairly early in the program. Love it. With the comp it has a very slight bit more felt recoil than a saiga but not enough to make any difference. As with the s12 mags were the issue. Jim's latest 10 rounders, and the 15 round mags run. Perfectly! As long as I feed it 1200fps ammo it simply is flawless. The AR ergonomics are the point that puts it ahead of the saiga for me. The left side charging handle is such a great feature as well. I'm thinking of getting one of the 18 round mags maybe but at this point I can reload a 15 rounder from a thigh rig in a flash so I may just wait to see if someone makes an all steel body 20 rounder. As far as drum the MD drum for saiga is cool but bulky and in the way for 3 gun (IMO). Each has fans. I have had both, I won't diss the saiga but I will take the Akdal hands down. Get one from Jim and you will be glad you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 I'm not sold completely on a mag bigger than 10 (I only own 10-round factory mags). I've seen guys have issues with getting them into and out of barrels. Most (90+%) of that is how you approach a stage, but those things are freaking huge. I'm not sure that's worth the extra 5-8 rounds when I can reload it as quickly as I can reload my AR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 My buddy shot his at txmg and some ro's allowed him to hang the mag out of the barrel basically hooking the gun on the edge of the barrel by the magwell. Some didn't allow it. It was fast when they let him do it. It is easier to drop the mag before trying to dump it in a barrel for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I'm not sold completely on a mag bigger than 10 (I only own 10-round factory mags). I've seen guys have issues with getting them into and out of barrels. Most (90+%) of that is how you approach a stage, but those things are freaking huge. I'm not sure that's worth the extra 5-8 rounds when I can reload it as quickly as I can reload my AR.If the stage is 12-16 rounds it makes enough difference between several spots on the scores!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) I'm not sold completely on a mag bigger than 10 (I only own 10-round factory mags). I've seen guys have issues with getting them into and out of barrels. Most (90+%) of that is how you approach a stage, but those things are freaking huge. I'm not sure that's worth the extra 5-8 rounds when I can reload it as quickly as I can reload my AR. Its a huge advantage. I used to just run a coupled 12 round mag (2 12s together) and while it worked now that I have a 20 rounder I can shoot so much faster because I don't have to worry about having a few misses on a long run of steel. It really helped me take the brakes off. I generally like to have at least 4 more shots than targets so I can shoot as fast as I would like. I used to have 2 20's but now I have a 20 and a 17 round mag because I broke one of the 20's and had to cut a section of the mag out and when I was done it was a 17 round mag. Just got done testing it with 3 mag dumps and it ran fine. One thing about the Firebird AKDAL mags that I like is they are metal. Pat Edited May 1, 2013 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Tooth and Nail - It's kind of misleading to label that video as "rapid fire" isn't it???? Just busting your balls. Glad to see others making components for this platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 *shrugs* Like I said, "not COMPLETELY sold." I can see where there would be advantages, but stage design would make a huge impact on if/when to use mags of that size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 *shrugs* Like I said, "not COMPLETELY sold." I can see where there would be advantages, but stage design would make a huge impact on if/when to use mags of that size. True stage design is the deciding factor but you have no control over stage design unless you only shoot matches you control the stages on. Some matches will have high round count stages like some of ours where we have to shoot up to 35 shotgun rounds. Other matches may only have you firing 9 to 12 rounds the entire match. I feel its best to be prepared for anything. There was a stage in the Texas Surefire Multigun Nationals where you had two arrays of 14 steel targets. I started with my 20 rounder shot the first arrary reloaded to two coupled 12 round mags and finished the second arrary with one run dry reload. I wish I had brought both my 20 round mags with me but I felt I would not need 2 mags. That second mag would have saved me a few seconds on that run. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 You've missed my point. What I'm saying is that I can see the utility of a 20-round magazine for a shotgun on a jungle walk type stage or something similar, where you're not going to have to pull the shotgun out of a barrel or put it into one. But if you're shooting a stage where you're shooting multiple guns and have to pull the gun out of a garbage can, you may lose a few seconds if you don't get it out exactly right. In that case, using a coupled 10 or 12 round mag may be the better option. I'm not saying that you control it, I'm saying you might have to mitigate one set of effects of the stage design by going to what seems to be a less than optimal solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 You've missed my point. What I'm saying is that I can see the utility of a 20-round magazine for a shotgun on a jungle walk type stage or something similar, where you're not going to have to pull the shotgun out of a barrel or put it into one. But if you're shooting a stage where you're shooting multiple guns and have to pull the gun out of a garbage can, you may lose a few seconds if you don't get it out exactly right. In that case, using a coupled 10 or 12 round mag may be the better option. I'm not saying that you control it, I'm saying you might have to mitigate one set of effects of the stage design by going to what seems to be a less than optimal solution. Sorry if I missed the point. I think its kind of like rifle mags use the one that meets the stage the best. I have less issue getting the Saiga with the 20 round mag out of the barrel. The issue for me is putting it back in. I am going to start just dropping the mag from now on that did cost me a few seconds on one stage in Texas with the dark house. I like the coupled mags for slug stages. I keep slugs in one mag and shot in the other. I am not a fan of dutch loading the mag because its too easy to screw that up. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) Here is me rapid firing on a stage. Was trying to go to fast lol. Edited May 2, 2013 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoShot Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) Got the call from R&R today, my gun was shipped. Should have it Tuesday. Edited July 12, 2013 by TwoShot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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