Finding speed

[Chris_C]

I hope this is the right place for this question. I am a fairly new Production shooter and I think I am at the point where I need to start looking for speed. My accuracy is decent (though it certainly needs improvement too). Trying to paint a picture here from my most recent match results, I had a total of 77 A's and 15 C's. No misses, D's, or penalties. The first place finisher (Master) had a cumulative time of 52.5 seconds, and I had 80.08 seconds for a 75.3% finish.

I imagine it varies from shooter to shooter, but where typically is the low-hanging fruit in terms of finding speed? I'm thinking entries and exits, and shooting on the move. I also know my splits are slow, but I think that's responsible for a small portion of the overall time.

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

[GuildSF4]

Check out this post:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=170198&st=25#entry1888624

Also recommend Ben Stoegers - Practical Pistol book, Brians - Beyond Fundamentals, and Matt Burketts DVD's.

[Greenmonster]

Like tou said, It took me awhile to have the gun up eye level upon entering a position, saves a lot of time, also I've been really trying to maintain a two handed grip when run/moving only a small distance, rather than breaking my grip to use arm swing for running.

[motosapiens]

from my most recent match results, I had a total of 77 A's and 15 C's.

I'm only a C shooter getting close to B, so take it with a few grains of salt, but:

The lowest hanging fruit is to turn half of those charlies into alphas.

I would still work on accuracy for production division, unless the match had a lot of particularly difficult shots.

It seems to me like just in a couple months I made some real headway by doing more bill drills and by incorporating the 2 drills mike seeklander recommended in the last 2 issues of front-sight magazine. Particularly the one that alternates pairs between a-zone, head and a 1.5" square drawn lower on the target. That drill helped me develop a feel for how much I needed to see and how long it takes for me to be sure my shots are hits.

After that, you need to figure out where you are slow. Do you know how long it takes you to draw and fire 2 a-zone shots at 10 yards? 2 headshots at 10 yards? How long your reloads take? Drills with a timer are invaluable here. An experienced friend watching you might also help to diagnose where your weakest skill is. Then you can work on fixing it and move on to the next weakest.

[Ron Ankeny]

Economy of motion, and non-shooting tasks performed quickly and efficiently are both huge.

[james57]

I have started using my Iphone for videos of my shooting and find that what I know I am doing is not at all what the lying video shows. During the competition you do things that you never recognize / or choose to forget-but the video brings it all back. It is helping me to isolate some of my many issues and I already have the equipment.

[old506]

Early on in your shooting career it is easy to find but you do have to look for it in the correct places, it isn't necessarily moving fast. One of the best ways is to get video of yourself shooting a stage and then compare it with someone who is much better then you (M or above) shooting the same stage. Break down those videos by watching them at real speed and then slow them down and watch them over and over again. Pay attention to the hands, then the feet, then the head and what each part does/doesn't do. At the same time compare your stats to the videos, meaning your HF and % of points shot. If the stats for the local are on the USPSA website it will also show the number of D's for you and the M/GM you are chasing, pay particular attention to that too.

As you go through, write down all the good things you noticed, then all of the things you need to work on. Dryfire and Livefire can be focused on a piece or two of that. I would caution against working on too many things. For instance, if your list has a half dozen or so thing you want to work on, focus on one or maybe two at the most and get really, really good at those before you move on. Don't try to shotgun it, you will just be mediocre at best and it will lead to frustration. Do it "until no doubt remains". When watching the next match video, focus on the things you are trying to improve. When you can cross them off your list, pick out another.

What I am trying to do by doing this is build "slides", like a slide projector. Eventually I will be in a situation that is the same or similar and I can draw from one of those "slides", pop it into the projector and press "play".

[Sleepswithdogs]

I have started using my Iphone for videos of my shooting and find that what I know I am doing is not at all what the lying video shows. During the competition you do things that you never recognize / or choose to forget-but the video brings it all back. It is helping me to isolate some of my many issues and I already have the equipment.

Racing motorcycles I had the same experience. I was able to find mistakes I was unaware I was making. If I had known I was making them, I'd do something different, but it isn't until I saw myself do it on vid that I become aware of what was really happening.

[benos]

Speed finds you, as your techniques and shot calling ability improve.

be

[Sleepswithdogs]

Speed finds you, as your techniques and shot calling ability improve.

be

Man, that's well put.

In Karate people always want speed and power, so they would try for speed and power. What we found out along the way was, speed and power comes from "perfecting" the technique, not from trying to have speed and power.

[toothguy]

Speed finds you, as your techniques and shot calling ability improve.

be

Man, that's well put.

In Karate people always want speed and power, so they would try for speed and power. What we found out along the way was, speed and power comes from "perfecting" the technique, not from trying to have speed and power.

I have watched Doug Koenig shoot at the Bianchi Cup. He's so smooth he looks slow, he makes the par times easily and never looks rushed.

Edited March 18, 2013 by toothguy

[Steve Anderson]

This is an interesting topic, for sure.

I can shoot pretty quickly when it's warranted, and I always pushed the speed in dry fire, and then in practice just shot the drill (whatever it was) for accuracy.

I never really PUSHED for speed in live fire practice, because I was accustomed to pulling the trigger as fast as possible in dry fire. So that's one way to go about it.

It seems like there are shooters who either:

a. Are holding themselves back (in practice) from raw speed.

b. Don't know what it feels like to operate the gun at its maximum speed, and therefore don't have that speed available to them.

And very early on, I misunderstood a quote from one of the big 3 at the time, who said something along the lines of: "If you're not missing occaisionally in practice, you're not shooting fast enough."

I think I now who said it, but I'm not 100% so it'll go uncredited, but I remember hearing that and thinking, "Why on earth would I want to miss?"

I understand that quote now.

Once you know what it feels like to shoot your gun at .15, then you can learn what it looks like.

Then you can learn to see what you need to see to hit and call your shots at that speed.

Think about the first time you drove a car (or motorcycle) at 100mph. I was scared to death, because I didn't know what it felt like to do that.

But, once you know what it feels like, you have that mode of operation available to you all the time.

I sense a podcast coming on.

[Chip_E]

You can't shoot what you can't see, and you can't move efficiently to where you can't see. Shooting fast and accurately is all about SEEING fast and accurately. Train your eyes to see your sights quicker, train your eyes to see the A zone quicker, train your eyes to see your next shooting position quicker. Most importantly, you need to start with a foundation of accuracy. If you're shooting a lot of Charlies and Deltas, speeding up will get you Mikes and no-shoots. It's kind of like speed typing. First you need to know where all the keys are, and know where your fingers need to move so you can get to the next key. Eventually, it feels natural, and you become fast.

When shooting accurately becomes natural, so will speed.

[toothguy]

You can't shoot what you can't see, and you can't move efficiently to where you can't see. Shooting fast and accurately is all about SEEING fast and accurately. Train your eyes to see your sights quicker, train your eyes to see the A zone quicker, train your eyes to see your next shooting position quicker. Most importantly, you need to start with a foundation of accuracy. If you're shooting a lot of Charlies and Deltas, speeding up will get you Mikes and no-shoots. It's kind of like speed typing. First you need to know where all the keys are, and know where your fingers need to move so you can get to the next key. Eventually, it feels natural, and you become fast.

When shooting accurately becomes natural, so will speed.

The speed at which you see is the speed at which you will shoot.

Brian Enos

Edited March 20, 2013 by toothguy

[toothguy]

This is an interesting topic, for sure.

I can shoot pretty quickly when it's warranted, and I always pushed the speed in dry fire, and then in practice just shot the drill (whatever it was) for accuracy.

I never really PUSHED for speed in live fire practice, because I was accustomed to pulling the trigger as fast as possible in dry fire. So that's one way to go about it.

It seems like there are shooters who either:

a. Are holding themselves back (in practice) from raw speed.

b. Don't know what it feels like to operate the gun at its maximum speed, and therefore don't have that speed available to them.

And very early on, I misunderstood a quote from one of the big 3 at the time, who said something along the lines of: "If you're not missing occaisionally in practice, you're not shooting fast enough."

I think I now who said it, but I'm not 100% so it'll go uncredited, but I remember hearing that and thinking, "Why on earth would I want to miss?"

I understand that quote now.

Once you know what it feels like to shoot your gun at .15, then you can learn what it looks like.

Then you can learn to see what you need to see to hit and call your shots at that speed.

Think about the first time you drove a car (or motorcycle) at 100mph. I was scared to death, because I didn't know what it felt like to do that.

But, once you know what it feels like, you have that mode of operation available to you all the time.

I sense a podcast coming on.

Control / Abandon by Brian Enos

If your fundamentals are rock-solid (meaning you can shoot - accurately), but you have difficulty "cranking it up," you might experiment with the following.

In practice, push yourself to shoot at a quicker pace than you would normally be comfortable. Don't worry about your hits, with good fundamentals, you can always return to basics. Shooters with a tendency towards accuracy often have to force themselves to shoot out of their comfort zone to get the feeling of what "driving the gun" feels like. Once you experience what it feels like to "let go and crank away," you will have the perspective needed to effectively balance speed and accuracy.

A great drill for this is the Bill Drill. The original drill tests how fast you can shoot all your shots into the A zone of an IPSC target at seven yards; however, to emphasize speed, make the following adjustment: At seven yards, instead of the goal of shooting all A's, just shoot as fast as possible with the goal of only keeping all your hits on the entire target. (If this sounds crazy, this drill is definitely for you.) Shoot within these parameters until you establish the average time it takes you to just hit the target with all your shots. Then, try it again, this time with the goal of keeping all your hits in the C zone—in the same time you just discovered—do not shoot at a slower pace. This is the opposite of the usual method; however, I assure you this is possible. After mastering this, you should be able to carry what you’ve learned up to this point into shooting all your shots in the A zone in the same time you needed to just hit the target.

When you are doing everything JUST RIGHT, on a target at seven yards, you should be able to shoot A's as fast as you can shoot hits. I've had tremendous insights into "speed shooting" while training in this manner.

It helps me to visualize a "Control/Abandon" scale. I picture it in my mind as a horizontally sliding knob like you might see on an older stereo, on which one end is Base and the other end is Treble. Substitute two opposite concepts for Base and Treble, i.e., control/abandon, or sights/trigger. Then, before you shoot, imagine where the knob is positioned.

Or, if you prefer thinking to imagining, think of two opposite concepts that have a ratio that has a total value of ten. For example, you might shoot a given string with "8 Control/2 Abandon," or "1 Control/9 Abandon."

The key is, every time, before you shoot, DECIDE exactly what you are going to do. And then after each string, without attaching to or judging the results—simply notice what actually happened. Eventually, clear intention will dictate your activity.

Edited March 20, 2013 by toothguy

[Sleepswithdogs]

Still on the speed line, I have had top level skeet shooters tell me that they are able upon occasion, to get in zone where the clays seem to be flying in slow motion, and I'm wondering if pistol shooter occasionally experience the same phenomena. Times when you are shooting really fast on the clock, but in your head you are moving smoothly, with ease and comfort and it almost seems slow.

These top level skeet shooters are capable of shooting 400-500- or more straight. There was one shooter I am familiar with that never missed a clay in 3 seasons, shooting top level competition in the 20g class. Watching him shoot was watching a zen master at work.

Anyone been to the "zone" shooting pistol??

Tooth guy, I know what you mean here. When I was teaching skeet to beginners I would sometimes depending on the student, split accuracy practice and speed practice. I'd tell them during part of the lesson, "I don't care if you hit any clays at all right now, what I want to hear is the correct rhythm and timing of the shots." This coupled with teaching the correct lead at the different stations would vastly improve their ability to break clay.

Tar

Edited March 21, 2013 by Sleepswithdogs

[toothguy]

Always be in one of three modes:

Accuracy, where speed is not judged.

Speed, where accuracy is not judged.

Shot calling, where everything else is trusted to the subconscious mind.

I've come to believe in speed as a mode of practice where accuracy is not judged as long as speed gains are made.

Once the speed gains level off the goal is maintain them subconsciously as accuracy is brought back in.

I believe that once your body knows what it feels like to do X in X amount of time, that can (and should) become normal.

Them you're back to just shooting and calling the shot.

it's not mandatory, but i usually start live fire fire in accuracy mode where don;t get to see your time unless you shoot and call all A hits. (Speed is not judged)

Then I like to move to Speed mode where accuracy is not judged. (Even a miss is acceptable IF a speed gain is made and UNDERSTOOD)

Then finish up in pure shot calling mode to reinforce "just shooting."

When speed becomes normal, all you have to do is decide to shoot Alphas.

It works well to separate the two ideas. Practice can be for speed, match is for Alphas.

Once you know how to shoot and call Alphas and develop the discipline to do so...you can (and should) practice Speed all you want.

Edited March 23, 2013 by toothguy

[djthemac]

IMO minor is way different then major and must be shoot as such.

I love shooting major limited because it allows me to run around with my hair on fire with Few[er] penalties. My goal for matches is to get at least 90% of the possible points (each target should be A/A or A/C), and then push for speed. I recently started shooting production and got a rude awakening. When shooting minor, accuracy is MOST important. You absolutely must get your 90% of possible points, as shooting A/C's = 8 points, vs 9 points for major. I would think that even if your body could move at open division speeds, the loss of points getting A/C's is not offset by time savings.

Try to work on smooth transitions. The split times can be slower, especially if that's what it takes to get good accuracy. Work on your cadence. When you see experienced shooters shoot a 4 target, array, the sound of gun fire is steady, continuous, as they quickly transition from 1 target to the next.

"bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang"

vs

"bang, bang ..... bang, bang ...... bang, bang...... bang, bang......"

I don't believe I am articulating this very well. TL;DR with production, shoot accurately, speed comes with experience.

Edited March 24, 2013 by djthemac

[Brettp12345]

I just started shooting in matches.. I have a nasty habit of looking at the target vs looking at my front sight. Any tips to train the eye?

[toothguy]

I just started shooting in matches.. I have a nasty habit of looking at the target vs looking at my front sight. Any tips to train the eye?

http://www.brianenos.com/pages/words.html#fundamental

[old506]

How far away are the targets? Are you looking at the target before or after the shot? You don't necessarily have to "look" at the front sight, and it isn't necessarily a "nasty habit".

I just started shooting in matches.. I have a nasty habit of looking at the target vs looking at my front sight. Any tips to train the eye?