Sarge Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 For the life of me I don't know why all of these weird rules questions keep popping into my head. It's a disease I tell ya'! If you shoot through a paper target and hit a popper and it falls that's REF. If you shoot through a paper target and hit a popper and it does not fall can you call for calibration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I haven't looked it up, yet. But my first thought is that you can only put a no-shoot in front of the steel? Therefore, and if that is true about the no-shoot, a calibration would be justified? I don't know, and I feel like I should. Damn it. It's a good question, Sarge. I should be in bed, but I'll look through the rule book, and see what I can find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) OK, I found 9.1.5.2 . My opinion is that there will be no calibration since it's a REF. and a reshoot is required, anyhow. Edit: Definetly no calibration. It's a reshoot, so why calibrate. Well, on second thought. Maybe a calibration should be done just to make sure it's set properly for the next shooter? Edited February 17, 2013 by grapemiester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 No calibration, and a reshoot, and you do get heckled severely for poor stage design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Not a reshoot if it does not strike down the popper. 9.1.5.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range equipment failure. The competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Sarge, look at appendix C1 note 6. If its hit and does not fall, the shooter can ask for a calibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) I know this is a big time thread drift, but referring back to my original post, is it legal to put a no-shoot in front of a popper. Common since tells me it wouldn't be legal, especially since they would be the same color, but I can't find anything in the rule book. God, I'm as bad as Sarge. And, I should be in bed. I'll be all cranky in the morning as I'm getting ready for work. It's all Sarge's fault. Edit: I'm guessing it's legal as long as at least 50% of the calibration zone is visible. Edit again: I'm pretty sure I've shot stages that had no-shoots behind poppers, or in close proximity, so I guess being the same color wouldn't be an issue. Ok, I'm going to bed. Edited February 17, 2013 by grapemiester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Sarge, look at appendix C1 note 6. If its hit and does not fall, the shooter can ask for a calibration. No calibration, because the popper -- by rule -- was not hit. The paper target is impenetrable, so the popper couldn't have been hit.... The answer is, if the popper falls, stop the shooter and reset the stage. If it doesn't -- hopefully the competitor engages it from elsewhere, and knocks it down..... If the competitor fails to shoot at the popper, it's a miss, and depending on whether or not the popper was even available from the point where the paper was shot a possible FTE as well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 grapemiester, A no shoot in front of a popper is allowed, but should not be done. That's begging for reshoots all day as every time it's knocked over by a hit that passes through the no shoot it's REF and an automatic reshoot. At most events it would slow things down so much it would probably get tossed out of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 There are options for no shoots around steel. . Use a steel no shoot target in front or you can put paper no shoots near but either side by side with (watch for splatter) or just behind which normally works better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 There are options for no shoots around steel. . Use a steel no shoot target in front or you can put paper no shoots near but either side by side with (watch for splatter) or just behind which normally works better. No shoot steel in front or behind, and if it is a popper it does not have to fall to count for penalty (4.3.1.8 Metal no-shoot targets which are designed to fall when hit, but which fail to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit, shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3, and is not grounds for a reshoot per range equipment failure.) As to Sarge's original question - if the popper is hit on a shoot thru and does not fall no calibration unless it does not fall when shot by itself then shooter has a choice to make... continue or ask for calibration. (As Nik said) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 grapemiester, A no shoot in front of a popper is allowed, but should not be done. That's begging for reshoots all day as every time it's knocked over by a hit that passes through the no shoot it's REF and an automatic reshoot. At most events it would slow things down so much it would probably get tossed out of the match. That makes a lot of since. It was still bugging me when I woke up this morning, and I just couldn't wrap my mind around it. Part of the learning process, I guess. Thanks, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 There are options for no shoots around steel. . Use a steel no shoot target in front or you can put paper no shoots near but either side by side with (watch for splatter) or just behind which normally works better. Thanks for the response. I was thinking about it this morning, and putting paper no shoots in front of steel didin't make much since, but for some stupid reason I wasn't looking at the REF aspect of it as ima45dv8 pointed out. Maybe my subconscious was trying to tell me but I was not listening. Learned a few things out of Sarge's post since last night. Many thanks to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) Sarge, look at appendix C1 note 6. If its hit and does not fall, the shooter can ask for a calibration. No calibration, because the popper -- by rule -- was not hit. The paper target is impenetrable, so the popper couldn't have been hit.... The answer is, if the popper falls, stop the shooter and reset the stage. If it doesn't -- hopefully the competitor engages it from elsewhere, and knocks it down..... If the competitor fails to shoot at the popper, it's a miss, and depending on whether or not the popper was even available from the point where the paper was shot a possible FTE as well.... If the moderators don't mind I'll continue on with just a bit of a thread drift. If a bullet passes through a no-shoot and strikes the scoring area of a paper target that it's not attached to, and then the shooter engages the same paper target again without hitting the no-shoot, would the same rule apply? Also, when the target is scored, there are only two holes in the target. I'm thinking the no-shoot hit would be scored, and the two hits on the paper target would be scored since it would be hard to prove which round fired, if any, hit both the no shoot and paper target. Did I just answer my own question? Sorry, if this is a stupid question. Edit: It would definitely help to answer my own questions, if I would remember that paper targets, and no shoots are impenetrable. I was just thinking of another scenario, and another question when I reread your post. Thanks again. Edited February 17, 2013 by grapemiester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) If a bullet passes through a no-shoot and strikes the scoring area of a paper target that it's not attached to, and then the shooter engages the same paper target again without hitting the no-shoot, would the same rule apply? Also, when the target is scored, there are only two holes in the target. I'm thinking the no-shoot hit would be scored, and the two hits on the paper target would be scored since it would be hard to prove which round fired, if any, hit both the no shoot and paper target. Did I just answer my own question? Sorry, if this is a stupid question. The simple answer is - The grease marks tell the story. Grease mark tells which one went thru the no-shoot. No grease mark and it lines up with no-shoot no score on target for that bullet, and 1 miss. (Can be much harder to determine at a match.) USPSA Rule - 9.1.5.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within the scoring area of a paper target, and continues on to strike the scoring area of another paper target, the hit on the subsequent paper target will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be. Edited February 17, 2013 by GuildSF4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Grease marks aren't the only way to determine the hit that does not score on the rear paper target. In a nutshell, if the RO can determine an accurate score, then no reshoot. If that's not possible, then reshoot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Sarge, look at appendix C1 note 6. If its hit and does not fall, the shooter can ask for a calibration. No calibration, because the popper -- by rule -- was not hit. The paper target is impenetrable, so the popper couldn't have been hit.... The answer is, if the popper falls, stop the shooter and reset the stage. If it doesn't -- hopefully the competitor engages it from elsewhere, and knocks it down..... If the competitor fails to shoot at the popper, it's a miss, and depending on whether or not the popper was even available from the point where the paper was shot a possible FTE as well.... Nik, the rule says nothing about how it was hit. It says if a popper was hit during a cof, and in this instance, the popper was hit. Regardless of whether the hit by rule didn't count. We already know you can engage a target behind a wall and not get an FTE, from a previous thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Sarge, look at appendix C1 note 6. If its hit and does not fall, the shooter can ask for a calibration. No calibration, because the popper -- by rule -- was not hit. The paper target is impenetrable, so the popper couldn't have been hit.... The answer is, if the popper falls, stop the shooter and reset the stage. If it doesn't -- hopefully the competitor engages it from elsewhere, and knocks it down..... If the competitor fails to shoot at the popper, it's a miss, and depending on whether or not the popper was even available from the point where the paper was shot a possible FTE as well.... Nik, the rule says nothing about how it was hit. It says if a popper was hit during a cof, and in this instance, the popper was hit. Regardless of whether the hit by rule didn't count. We already know you can engage a target behind a wall and not get an FTE, from a previous thread. Grumpy, Read the rule quoted above. It says "strike down" not hit. On the other thread you mention, there is nothing in that conversation to convince me a person can engage a target through a wall and not get an FTE. There were 2 differing opinions in that thread, and no one came up with any rule that swayed the people in either camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 I love it when learning takes place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Sarge, look at appendix C1 note 6. If its hit and does not fall, the shooter can ask for a calibration. No calibration, because the popper -- by rule -- was not hit. The paper target is impenetrable, so the popper couldn't have been hit.... The answer is, if the popper falls, stop the shooter and reset the stage. If it doesn't -- hopefully the competitor engages it from elsewhere, and knocks it down..... If the competitor fails to shoot at the popper, it's a miss, and depending on whether or not the popper was even available from the point where the paper was shot a possible FTE as well.... Nik, the rule says nothing about how it was hit. It says if a popper was hit during a cof, and in this instance, the popper was hit. Regardless of whether the hit by rule didn't count. We already know you can engage a target behind a wall and not get an FTE, from a previous thread. It really doesn't change the situation for me. If I heard about such a hit, I'd order a reshoot. (Realistically, I'd hope to never be in that situation at a major -- because I hopefully would have caught the possibility and dealt with it during set-up). Assume I calibrate it -- which needs to be done from the point closest to where the competitor was, with the caveat that the calibration zone is available: If I knock the popper down, should the competitor really eat the miss, and the FTE for a consequence of bad stage design? I don't think so. If the popper stays up -- where are we? Right, reshoot..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Sarge, look at appendix C1 note 6. If its hit and does not fall, the shooter can ask for a calibration. No calibration, because the popper -- by rule -- was not hit. The paper target is impenetrable, so the popper couldn't have been hit.... The answer is, if the popper falls, stop the shooter and reset the stage. If it doesn't -- hopefully the competitor engages it from elsewhere, and knocks it down..... If the competitor fails to shoot at the popper, it's a miss, and depending on whether or not the popper was even available from the point where the paper was shot a possible FTE as well.... Nik, the rule says nothing about how it was hit. It says if a popper was hit during a cof, and in this instance, the popper was hit. Regardless of whether the hit by rule didn't count. We already know you can engage a target behind a wall and not get an FTE, from a previous thread. Buuuuttttt.... If the hit on the popper went through a NoShoot, it didn't hit it, right? If they shoot it from somewhere else in the CoF and avoid the NS, all other rules regarding challenges to calibration apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Sarge, look at appendix C1 note 6. If its hit and does not fall, the shooter can ask for a calibration. No calibration, because the popper -- by rule -- was not hit. The paper target is impenetrable, so the popper couldn't have been hit.... The answer is, if the popper falls, stop the shooter and reset the stage. If it doesn't -- hopefully the competitor engages it from elsewhere, and knocks it down..... If the competitor fails to shoot at the popper, it's a miss, and depending on whether or not the popper was even available from the point where the paper was shot a possible FTE as well.... Nik, the rule says nothing about how it was hit. It says if a popper was hit during a cof, and in this instance, the popper was hit. Regardless of whether the hit by rule didn't count. We already know you can engage a target behind a wall and not get an FTE, from a previous thread. Grumpy, Read the rule quoted above. It says "strike down" not hit. On the other thread you mention, there is nothing in that conversation to convince me a person can engage a target through a wall and not get an FTE. There were 2 differing opinions in that thread, and no one came up with any rule that swayed the people in either camp. Sperman, read appendix C1 paragraph 6. While the rule you quote says strike down, the rule I quoted says hit. Whether it was a legal hit or not, the popper was still hit during a cof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Sorry Grumpy -- but it wasn't hit as the paper target is impenetrable..... If I encountered this half-way through the match, I might have to toss the stage..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Sorry Grumpy -- but it wasn't hit as the paper target is impenetrable..... If I encountered this half-way through the match, I might have to toss the stage..... I say it was hit, just not legally. Its a matter of perspective. By the rule you quote, because of the impenetrable nature of no shoots and walls, it wasn't hit. By the facts of reality and missing paint, it was hit. Moot point though...like I said earlier, heckle the stage designer mercilessly for poor stage design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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