Fiber Optic in production division?

[spook]

Having said all that, the proposed change would essentially be administrative (i.e. to simplify matters in the field). You don't win or lose the World Shoot because of the type of sights you use - David Sevigny became IPSC PD World Champion by virtue of his exceptional talent (and using sights which are permitted under existing rules).

Well I think this is where I beg to differ. I think two things make or break a gun in production division:

1) Magazine capacity

2) Sights

Now, what I mean with "make or break" is that a gun with exceptionally good sights will win over a gun with exceptionally crappy sights. I believe that it's not possible to call shots with standard Glock sights (or standard CZ sights) as fast in every situation as with a pair of decent sights like Heinies. Changing the rule to your proposed rule means that you will make a whole bunch of guns with really crappy sights competitive. I know someone who bought a Para LDA just for the sights. If your proposition will be realized, a shooter like that can just buy any gun he likes and add any pair of decent sights.

Magazine capacity speaks for itself (and is not the issue here)

Other things, like recoil and triggers matter as well, but since they are standardized (sp?) in IPSC PD, they're no longer a real issue (kudos to the Rules Committee for that )

[Flexmoney]

Well...I agree and disagree a little...

I think most Production guns (I am talking about true, off the shelf guns) come with crappy sights and crappy triggers. i don't know who is to blame...bean counters or lawyers (no offense to either ).

You can take a pretty cheap gun...and improve it a ton with a decent set of after-market sights.

And, it doesn't take a lot of work (or money) to clean up the triggers as well.

With Minor loads..recoil isn't as much of a factor, I don't think.

For IPSC...capacity would be a deciding factor for me choosing a gun.

[Vince Pinto]

For IPSC...capacity would be a deciding factor for me choosing a gun.

For me, it's reliability, and that's why I only shoot Glocks, but you knew that already!

[Nik Habicht]

For IPSC...capacity would be a deciding factor for me choosing a gun.

For me, it's reliability, and that's why I only shoot Glocks, but you knew that already!

I'm pretty sure that any gun/ammo combination could be set up to run reliably ---- in my limited experience, the shooter just needs to resist the urge to try out the gadget/powder/head/primer/oal/spring du jour, after achieving reliability....

[racerba]

But if you work the trigger, it might put it under the 5lb rule.

Vince,

You might also want to petition that 5lb limit out of the rules. A Glock that has been broken in will be under the 5lb limit. Is it fair for a person to replace a factory component in order to comply with the rules?

[Vince Pinto]

Vince, You might also want to petition that 5lb limit out of the rules.  A Glock that has been broken in will be under the 5lb limit.  Is it fair for a person to replace a factory component in order to comply with the rules?

It's highly unlikely that that's ever going to happen, (and I personally will not support it), because the 5lb trigger is an essential part of the Production Division criteria and, yes, you've gotta do what you've gotta do to comply with the rules.

I've used the same G21 in IPSC for over 10 years, and the only thing that I've ever needed to replace to bring it back up to 5lbs was the trigger bar assembly, which only costs about US$10.

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

I am curious why you believe that a 5lb trigger is "an essential part of the Production Division criteria"?

I thought your main concern for Production was a non-single action first shot?

[Vince Pinto]

I am curious why you believe that a 5lb trigger is "an essential part of the Production Division criteria"? I thought your main concern for Production was a non-single action first shot?

The primary criteria for Production Division is, and always will be, no single-action-only guns (I should make T-Shirts!!).

The minimum 5lb trigger pull is essentially a "non-invasive" way to ensure that competitors don't illegally fiddle with the internal workings of their guns, and it also obviates the need for competitors to spend big bucks in order to be competitive in the division.

[mcoliver]

Vince, how about the gun color/finish change? Does it it have to be that strict really? Blued guns don't last 3 days with my sweat even inside the mag wells...

[Vince Pinto]

The Handgun Rule Interpretations published on the IPSC website on 6 August 2004 include the following:

Appendix D4: 19.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited. Prohibited modifications include changing the original colour and/or finish of a handgun, and/or adding stripes or other embellishments.

And, yes, it does have to be that strict, because it's Production Division.

If you want to modify your gun by being creative and/or decorative, you're welcome to shoot one of the other four divisions. If the finish comes off your gun so quickly, and if you believe that it reduces your competitiveness, then I respectfully recommend you to use a different gun.

[Skywalker]

Blued guns don't last 3 days with my sweat even inside the mag wells...

mcoliver,

you're supposed to stick your mags in the magwell, not your fingers (ouch! )...

[Nik Habicht]

If the finish comes off your gun so quickly, and if you believe that it reduces your competitiveness, then I respectfully recommend you to use a different gun.

.....or move to the U.S. and shoot in USPSA's Production division --- where you can refinish your slide, but can only load ten rounds in your mags.....

[kdj]

I'm curious: Would

http://www.gunaccessories.com/ExpressSights/handgun.asp

be legal in USPSA Production?

I think Not for IPSC but I'm not sure for USPSA and I did get their catalog in the goodie bag at a recent area match!

Kevin

[Vince Pinto]

Kevin,

Aftermarket night sights are legal for IPSC Production Division provided the OFM offers night sights on the particular model gun you're using.

[Jim Norman]

I really love this sport, I' crazy about shooting too.

Lets see, I can't change the color of my gun from Black to silver or blue regardless of the reason, but I can add $200 dollars worth of sights, Polish or have polished every conceivable working part, wrap the grips with skateboard tape, but can't stick a ten cent plug in the butt of my Glock.

The rules make so much sense. I can do a trigger job and spend what ever it takes to get the gun to have e smoothest posible 5 lb trigger in IPSC, or what ever i canmake work in USPSA, but a chromes slide to facilitate cleaning or corrosion resistance is a NoGo.

Trying to explain all this to a new shooter is one of the things I look forward to. One of the original criteria if I recall correctly was to set up a shoot what you got division where money wasn't the issue. True Dave S can beat me with a musket, bt that hasn't stopped the manufacturers from starting a nequipment race. Albeit it is less intense than that in Open or Limited.

I can but a G35 or G35 with the lightened slide, but i cant put a non ported barel in my 17C and shoot. I can however spend $500 plus on a new gun. I can then buy a match grde barrel to put in my new gun. I can then toss the stock sights and add a set of Bomars, allowing them to hang over the rear of the slide 1/2 inch, but I can't mill the slide to fit them in.

This makes so much sense to me. Btw, I do shoot in Production, currently shooting a Sig which will probably go out for work in the spring.

Jim Norman

[Sterling White]

Jim,

Did you wake up and take a grumpy pill?

Cut loose and laugh a little...it makes perfect sense if your a manufacturer!

[Jim Norman]

Not grumpy! Just tired of dumb rules. If something makes a competitive difference, then by all means feel free to make a rule that maintaqins the playing field. NASCAR has restrictors on air intake, but you can paint your car any damed color you want. So what is the big deal. If Sig offered a Special finish, say Robars coating, I could buy the gun, but I can't have the same model of gun that I already own coated. Makes no sense. The rules should reflect logic. If something gives a decided advantage, then sure, go ahead and restrict it. But if the change is purely cosmetic, or even if it enhances reliability then why not allow it. We allow you to polish all sorts of internal parts for the sake of reliability, but if you want to change the color of your slide thats a big no-no.

We need to think about what we are looking to accomplish. A level playing field is what I thought was the idea.

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

I can do a trigger job and spend what ever it takes to get the gun to have e smoothest posible 5 lb trigger in IPSC, or what ever i canmake work in USPSA, but a chromes slide to facilitate cleaning or corrosion resistance is a NoGo.

Correction. You cannot "do a trigger job" in IPSC Production Division. I think you're confused with USPSA Production Division.

Trying to explain all this to a new shooter is one of the things I look forward to.

So do I, but I find that it's essential to have a cheerful, friendly and positive attitude, don't you?

One of the original criteria if I recall correctly was to set up a shoot what you got division where money wasn't the issue.

Incorrect, because if I've only got a single-action 1911, I can't "shoot what you got" in Production Division. Moreover, money was never a criteria so, if you're convinced that a $3,000 gun will make you a better shooter than somebody with a $500 gun, knock yourself out, however history has shown that talent is what separates the men from the boys.

I can but a G35 or G35 with the lightened slide, but i cant put a non ported barel in my 17C and shoot. I can however spend $500 plus on a new gun. I can then buy a match grde barrel to put in my new gun.

Again, only in USPSA Production Division (and a G17C with a non-ported barrel is a protoype).

If something gives a decided advantage, then sure, go ahead and restrict it. But if the change is purely cosmetic, or even if it enhances reliability then why not allow it. We allow you to polish all sorts of internal parts for the sake of reliability, but if you want to change the color of your slide thats a big no-no.

Correct, because IPSC Production Division is not a DIY division. We don't allow prototypes - get over it. We have another four divisions, where you can play gunsmith or fashion guru, to your heart's content.

We need to think about what we are looking to accomplish. A level playing field is what I thought was the idea.

IPSC has accomplished exactly what we were trying to accomplish. A division exclusively for non-SAO pistols produced by mainstream manufacturers, which cannot be modified, save and except for minor allowances primarily in respect of safety and eyesight.

[mcoliver]

If Sig offered a Special finish, say Robars coating, I could buy the gun, but I can't have the same model of gun that I already own coated. Makes no sense.

Don't spank me. But I think you can.

The problem is when a manufacturer only offers a particular model in, say, blue. So you can't have it chromed although you can black chrome it and nobody will be able to tell...ooops, did I just say that out loud? )

[Chuck Anderson]

Vince, what rule in IPSC prevents doing trigger jobs? I've seen quite a few CZ, Beretta, SIG and Tanfoglio guns that are set for IPSC, 5lb pull on the first shot and nothing after. I believe they were all done with Factory parts to comply with the rule. It will be interesting in Ecuador to see how this will be prevented.

[Vince Pinto]

The problem is when a manufacturer only offers a particular model in, say, blue.  So you can't have it chromed although you can black chrome it and nobody will be able to tell...

Really? My advice: don't spend thousands of dollars going to a World Shoot with an illegal gun. You might get a very expensive shock.

[Vince Pinto]

Vince, what rule in IPSC prevents doing trigger jobs?  I've seen quite a few CZ, Beretta, SIG and Tanfoglio guns that are set for IPSC, 5lb pull on the first shot and nothing after.  I believe they were all done with Factory parts to comply with the rule.

19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

........ 19.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited.

-:and the 5lb minimum trigger pull requirement is the primary test so, even if you use authorised OFM parts (e.g. a Glock "minus" connector), if you fail the trigger pull test, it's a case of welcome to Open Division.

The expression "minor detailing" basically means cleaning. We used to say "polishing", but we were reliably informed that this means "grinding" to a metal worker, hence the change of language. The other thing is that the Production Rules are really very simple:

1. Buy a gun on the approved gun list;

2. Make sure it has a 5lb trigger pull;

3. Leave it the hell alone and go shoot.

Of course I realise some guys out there think that their inability to change the colour of their gun to match their shoes & handbag is a direct assault on their personal freedoms, but I can live that heavy burden.

[Vlad]

Not for nothing but it is not all about aesthetics. I guess if you only shoot a plastic gun out of a plastic holdster you may never see this, but my steel framed gun in contact with my kydex holdster plus LOTS of draws results in worn out finish on frame. At that point my choices are A) because my gun is now exposed to rain, sweat and crud face the fact that it will rust, have it refinished by the factory with their propriatory finish as often as necessary maybe as often as twice a year or C) buy a new gun.

None of this options are very friendly or keeping competition alive. I've heard it said that this should make the manufacturers produce products that we want, but thats a bit of bull in my opinion because competition guns are not always good "real" guns regardless of the game rules. That finish which wears quickly in the IPSC world may be a perfectly good one for a carry gun which doesn't get exposed to the same amount or type of wear. At the same time that chrome finish that a training/practice/competition gun would prefer may be tactically inferior to the baked on plastic finish the factory puts on it. However the finish provide no competitive advantage and only makes it CHEAPER to maintain and own the gun not more expensive.

I will also like to point out that there is an HUGE aftermarket market and it is not driven by IPSC shooters, it is driven by the millions of gun owners who own production guns and like to add bits to them. There are 5 types of wrap around grips not because USPSA shooters want them, but because day to day folks do. So if you are trying to have a divisions in which "real" production guns as owned by the folks out there can shoot then the current aproach is flawed.

As far as I can tell the current rules pretty much seem to try to make Production the Glock division. I hate to say this but there needs to more input into this division from countries where people actually own guns, keep them at home, and get to carry them.

I'm no trying to start a fight or anything, I just think there is a growing cultural divide here. Where I live I can go to the corner mainstream sporting goods store (not a gunshop, but a place I can buy hand weights, bikes, and golf clubs) and purchase adjustable fiberoptic sights for a glock and multiple types of finger grooved wrap around grips for multiple types of guns. That market is driven by the reality of gun ownership in the mainstream. We also get lots of new shooters at our club. Just two days ago we had SEVEN new shooters at our small indoor practice match. Out of the new shooters we have about a third would shoot Open by the IPSC rules with what a the average person would think of as a DA or DA/SA Production gun. We can ask them to remove their grips, or whatever doodads for the most part but for the guys with ported factory guns we can't tell them to buy a new barrel we can only tell them to buy a new gun.

Despite an obvious trend to the opposite I would hope that IPSC/USPSA would be more concerned with attracting new shooters and keeping them then with with weather a $5 bit of plastic alters some fictional balance. If folks like Dave S. can kick butt so amazingly with a stock gun do you really think he will be threatend by a shooter with a glock plug or a guy with a trigger job? I would almost buy the equipment race argument if the pricing was such that a race was rational but in this case it is inverted. It is cheaper to modify some production gun I already have to make it competitive then buy a new one that is so out of the box. A lot of new shooters have to modify their guns DOWN not UP to compete and in my personal opinion that is bordering on lunacy.

Vlad

[Vince Pinto]

Vlad,

I don't want to patronise you, but you've obviously given the matter a lot of thought, and you've presented your arguments clearly and unemotionally. Thank you.

You mention a "cultural divide", but I think it's better described as a "concept divide". Are Americans the only people in the IPSC world who want to tinker with and customise their guns? Absolutely not. Sadly though, the practice of "buy a gun and fix it" has become endemic in IPSC, but most of us can accept it as a development process in respect of IPSC's equivalent of Formula 1 & Formula 3, specifically the various divisions dominated by SAO guns.

When IPSC first introduced Production Division in 1999, we were very clear about what we wanted to achieve. The primary criteria was no SAO guns, and that helped us achieve another objective, namely to appeal to the mainstream gun makers, who previously had no competitive place for their products in IPSC. We wanted to get their attention, and I don't think anybody can say that we've been unsuccessful. In fact, some people are concerned that the recent slew of "made for PD" guns is a potential problem, but that's yet another debate!

The other thing we wanted to avoid was yet another "buy a gun and fix it" or "DIY" division, hence the tough restrictions in IPSC PD. On the other hand, the version adopted by the USPSA allows a number of modifications not permitted under IPSC rules (e.g. replacement barrels, throating, trigger action work etc.), but I think that's tantamount to creating a "Limited 10 Division for DA guns", quite a different concept to that which was originally envisaged by IPSC.

It is for this reason that when it comes to gun finishes, there's nothing stopping you returning your gun to the OFM to have the original finish restored, but we just won't allow aftermarket or DIY refinishing, because the gun ceases to be a production gun.

While your argument about "a $5 piece of plastic" is certainly reasonable, in and of itself, I believe it would the beginning of the "slippery slope". You add a Jentra plug to your Glock. I then add a Pintra plug to my Glock, but mine weighs a bit more, Nik then adds a Habicta plug to his Glock, and he adds even more weight. OK, so we introduce a weight rule, but can you imagine the additional administrative headaches?

Next, you spend $200 on a trigger job. I contact the same gunsmith and say "I wanna whup Vlad's ass", so he sells me a $400 trigger job. Then Nik ......

Anyway, despite the tough IPSC restrictions, PD is our fastest growing division. I don't have hard global numbers, but my best guesstimate is that 60% of IPSC PD competitors are those who've crossed over from other divisions, and the remaining 40% are new blood. However I do have numbers for the recently concluded Level IV European Championships and the forthcoming Level IV Australasian Championships, which you can compare to WSXIII just two years ago:

WSXIII (780): Open 338 (44%), Modified 55 (7%), Standard 306 (39%), Production 056 (07%), Revolver 25 (3%).

EC2004 (748): Open 242 (31%), Modified 45 (6%), Standard 253 (35%), Production 168 (23%), Revolver 40 (5%).

AA2004 (479): Open 162 (34%), Modified 08 (2%), Standard 159 (33%), Production 125 (26%), Revolver 25 (5%).

As you can see, the division which has shown the most dramatic growth is Production, so I therefore submit to you that the people who actually shoot IPSC Production Division are apparently happy with the rules as they are at present. In fact, I predict that at WSXIV next year in Ecuador, we'll see the PD field hit the 30% mark.

It is therefore my conclusion that IPSC does not need to relax it's PD rules. In fact, if I were King of IPSC, the rules would be even tougher.

[Jim Norman]

Vince says: It is for this reason that when it comes to gun finishes, there's nothing stopping you returning your gun to the OFM to have the original finish restored, but we just won't allow aftermarket or DIY refinishing, because the gun ceases to be a production gun.

If the Productin Gun Company, Inc uses the VP Coating company to provide the finish on their gun and the VP coating company provides that exact same finish to the general publinc with a 1 week turnaround for $150.0 whild the PD Gun company marks up the refinish to $250 and takes two months to retun my gun, can I just have the VP finishing company refinish my gun with the factory finish?

Jim