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Interesting Phenomena...tons of questions


Hammbone
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I'll try to keep this short:

Been reloading for 6mo. Just got a chronograph and used it for the first time today. I had 3 basic bullet/powder combos to test.

124gr plated w/ Titegroup

124gr plated w/ HS-6

147gr plated w/ Titegroup

With the Titegroup loads, I noticed a point of diminishing returns. In fact, there appears to be an optimum load in terms of the lowest spread and standard deviation. Loads past this point really get sporadic.

With the HS-6, each set of 5 shots was MUCH lower than the remaining 4 shots. Still scratching my head on that one. If I ignore the first shot each time, the data doesn't look to bad - but I don't think I can ignore that first shot.

Take a look at my data and let me know what you think.

post-42858-0-47236800-1357616791_thumb.j

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How was the first round chambered? It is not uncommon for the first shot, hand (slide released) chambered, to give different results than the following rounds that were chambered by the gun cycling.

How much lower was MUCH lower? Since the first round at a chrono station will be hand chambered, you cannot really ignore the first one as it will be part of the average.

Guy

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Scott, IMHO 5 shots is too small a sample to draw any conclusions.

I wouldn't be looking for "trends" in a group of five - I'd use the 5 shots

to help me determine what charge I need to get a certain PF that I'm

looking for.

For the 124 grain bullet, seems like I'd be shooting for around 4.0 gr

TG - then I'd go load up at least 20 -30 of them, and test them for

velocity, feel, functioning and accuracy; with the 147 gr, I'd shoot

for around 3.3 gr TG, and test 20-30 of them in more depth.

I'm confused re: HS6 - I'd think you'd get more velocity from 6.5 grains

than you're getting??? At this point, I'd check my scale to make sure

that I'm throwing 6.5 grains, and check my chrono to make sure I'm

really getting PF 129?

Of course, if there's a problem with the HS6 load, I'd go back and check

my TG numbers also. If you had problem with your powder charge or

chrono, I'd redo the TG data again.

Good luck. :cheers:

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I agree with Hi Power, 5 shots is not enough. For just checking a load I start with 10, if those make the vel I want then I will load a hundred. Of that 100 i will put at least 50 through the chrono and othe 50 for practice. I calculate the PF from the avg of those 50, for the avg of each string of 10 and for the lowest 3 shots. When a combination has an avg PF of 130/170 and the low PF above the floor I feel good about the load. I will then shoot it in practice for accuracy and feel. When I have a load I use for matches or carry, every time I make a new batch I will chrono again and add that to the data. It lets me see variation in components and atmospheric conditions on the load. I have a favorite load for 45 cap, used a new primer lot and last chrono showed they are closer than I want to floor. I will use them for local matches and bump the load a tenth of a grain for matches with chrono's.

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Your titegroup loads look right in the ballpark. Interesting load

observation on titegroup--the same load (4 gr ±) will get you

major with a 230 in 45, major with a 180 in 40, and minor with a

124 in 9mm.

HS-6? It really doesn't like running partial case loads. Probably not the

best choice for minor 9, but it does well in major 9 loads. Your first shot

variance might be as simple as how the powder is laying in the case.

Try this---single load 5 rounds and see if they are more consistent.

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Wow. Thanks for all the feedback guys! You have all pointed out some 'obvious' things that I completely overlooked. I'm still learning....but having a blast doing it!

I just loaded up qty (50) rounds of 124gr bullets with 4.0gr TG. I'll take them to the club Thursday for an accuracy test.

open17

HS-6? It really doesn't like running partial case loads. Probably not the

best choice for minor 9, but it does well in major 9 loads.

I noticed at minor velocities it does not burn clean at all. Leaves a mess on everything. Cases, slide, barrel - just a mess.

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For the 124 grain bullet, seems like I'd be shooting for around 4.0 gr

TG - then I'd go load up at least 20 -30 of them, and test them for

velocity, feel, functioning and accuracy; with the 147 gr, I'd shoot

for around 3.3 gr TG, and test 20-30 of them in more depth.

Do you have any recommendations on OAL?

With the 124gr I'm at 1.138"

With the 147gr I'm at 1.146"

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For the 124 grain bullet, seems like I'd be shooting for around 4.0 gr

TG -

Do you have any recommendations on OAL?

With the 124gr I'm at 1.138"

With the 147gr I'm at 1.146"

Those sound like good OAL's IFF they feed through your mag/gun.

If you have any functioning problems, try shortening them a bit.

After you get a load you like - you might try different OAL's as a

final step in "tweaking" your load - might be little more or less

accurate with a different OAL.

Of course, your velocity could change at different OAL's as well,

so keep checking your chrono as you change OAL's.

:cheers:

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For the 124 grain bullet, seems like I'd be shooting for around 4.0 gr

TG -

Do you have any recommendations on OAL?

With the 124gr I'm at 1.138"

With the 147gr I'm at 1.146"

Those sound like good OAL's IFF they feed through your mag/gun.

If you have any functioning problems, try shortening them a bit.

After you get a load you like - you might try different OAL's as a

final step in "tweaking" your load - might be little more or less

accurate with a different OAL.

Of course, your velocity could change at different OAL's as well,

so keep checking your chrono as you change OAL's.

:cheers:

Thanks. Everything functions fine. I'm going to leave things be with the OAL until I get my head wrapped around some of this other stuff.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I finally got a chance to get out and test accuracy on these loads. Although the Tightgroup had the smallest ES' s and SD's acrossed the chrono, they were down right crap in the accuracy department. Based on what I experienced, it should be valled "Widegroup". HS-6 at 6.3gr with 124gr plated bullets at 1.138" OAL were tack drivers! Although HS-6 does leave my gun a little dirty. It leaves behind what I assume is partially burnt powder. They're little semi translucent balls that look almost like little pieces of gel. Nonetheless, between the two powders that "I" have, I'm sticking with HS-6. I'd rather have the bullet go where I aim it than to have a clean gun.

I've read TG works better with jacketed bullets. So I'll hang onto it and get a few jacketed to try.

Being thrilled with the accuracy of HS-6, I'm hesitant to try anything else. Although if I did, it'd just be get a cleaner burn. There's a LOT of talk about N320, but people also claim TG is their back-up to N320, so I'm reluctant to try it based on my accuracy problem with TG. Having said that, I'm intrigued by N330, but I don't read a lot about it.

My main purpose is slow target shooting, so low recoil for speed isn't my goal necessarily. Although I do try to load to about a 130PF, even though it doesn't mean anything to me or the club I shoot at.

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I load up 100 rounds to chrono, 5 strings of 20 rounds each. Use a sharpie to color the bullet black. This makes it easier for the chrono to pick up, I've been told. Test for accuracy when you chrono too. I have found that Titegroup gets better groups at 140 PF. It sucks at 129 - 131. Good luck. Seems like everyone is in search of the perfect load these days. I hope you find yours.

Edited by Red Ryder
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There's a LOT of talk about N320, but I'm intrigued by N330,

My main purpose is slow target shooting

Hamm, we used to have someone who'd write in (a year or two ago), who was also

a 9mm target shooter - seemed very knowledgeable - haven't heard from him in a

while. But, he swore N340 was PERFECT for 9mm accuracy. Might want to add

that to your wish list of powders to try.

As Red Ryder mentioned, don't discount a powder until you've tried accuracy at

a few PF levels - what is accurate at PF 140 may not be accurate at PF 120.

:cheers:

Edited by Hi-Power Jack
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Thanks for the tip on N340. I'mgoing to look for some. Looks like it has similar burn rate as HS-6.

In regards to chasing accuracy with TG, how does OAL effect it? I shoot a mostly box stock Beretta M9. It'll eat anything I feed it, so I don't think my gun is going to be my limiting factor on OAL. How I got to my current OAL is by eyeball. I'm seating/crimping the bullet so that the edge of the case mouth is just behind the start of the ogive.

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In regards to chasing accuracy with TG, how does OAL effect it? I'm seating/crimping the bullet so that the edge of the case mouth is just behind the start of the ogive.

My BHP is more accurate with an OAL of 1.12 (MG 124 gr JHP), but doesn't

feed until I push it out to 1.13 - loses a little accuracy, but it feeds better.

If you're shooting a semi-auto, you really need a set of calipers - only c $30.

Every load - powder charge, specific bullet and OAL is part of the load combo -

change any of those, and you have a different load - needs to be calibrated for

you and your gun.

I'm happy you got a chrono - that's necessary too - NOW you need a set

of calipers to determine the OAL of your loads . :cheers:

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Oh no, I have calipers. Multiple sets in fact. I said I eyeballed it initially, but my 124gr loads measure at 1.138"...and they're all staying within +/-.0005".

More so, I was just pondering if changing that would effect accuracy, and how so.

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With the Titegroup loads, I noticed a point of diminishing returns. In fact, there appears to be an optimum load in terms of the lowest spread and standard deviation. Loads past this point really get sporadic.

That often happens. For one thing, the increase in velocity is not consistent. You want to find a load, if you can, where there is a minimal variation in velocity over a small range of powder volume because that means that small variation in your charge won't matter as much.

But also be aware that you have to also watch for signs of over-pressure when you are testing. Pistol powders are very fast burning and you can go from OK to overpressure pretty abruptly.

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