Major, is it worth it?

[NukeMech]

Question: Is it plausible to shoot .308 competitively for major scoring?

Equipment: 20" AR10-A4, 20rd M1-A mags, Surplus .308 ammo, Me (6'3" 330lbs rather strong)

I am large enough that I do not have problems wielding the rifle. I just bought the rifle so I am not sure about the recoil yet. I need to compartively shoot them together. I think I will do that today.

Anyhow what do you guys think???

[Chriss Grube]

If it was worth it you would see the top guys doing it. Rifle is dominated by .223 minor. Look what the top 5 guys are using and use the similar gear. There's a reason they are winning with that gear and not a .308.

[George]

A different opinion:

If it is what you have and you can shoot it well, then use it and you will do fine. When you find it holding you back, then change. But until then, shoot what you have.

There are a few folks out there who can run with the big dawgs while shooting a .308. If you want to make it work, practice will give you the skills.

--

Regards,

[EricW]

With the advent of Heavy Metal (or whatever the heck its called), who cares? Forgo the optics and do battle with the M1A's. There's more than a couple heavy metal guys who clean the clocks of most guys shooting Tactical.

Go for it.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Its the Archer and NOT the Arrow that makes the difference......Blaze your own trail and excel at whatever you choose. I think life is too short to be a follower.

Sheesh, how may cliches can you stuff into one post?! I think you get the idea, though.

[rhino]

I dunno ... NukeMech is just a little scrawny peewee. I'm not sure he could hold that AR10 in his hands without a bench rest. He's delicate.

Aaron, I think you'd do really well with your AR10. Obviously recoil is not going to be an issue for you. The only down side is that you may have to reload more often, but I see that as having the opportunity to reload more often and get the practice during the match (that's one reason why I shoot Limited10 in pistol). And you won't have to worry about those pesky "non-penalty mikes," aka D hits scoring minor.

If we ever get a "He-Man" category running locally, you'll be all over it.

Given all of that, though, in terms of speed, you will never match what YOU can do with your AR with what YOU do with your AR10.

[benny hill]

My ar-10 is set up w/ my comp, jp trigger, 1.5x5 scope , will shoot sub 1" & only weights 9 1/2 lbs. will use it more next year & will use it in oct. at the ark. state 3-gun.

[hopalong]

benny,

Thread drift on...

Looking forward to having another 308 shooter.

you going to shoot in the Tactical division or Open? (me thinks Tactical)

will be ROing so request squadding with Me as ROs stay with the squad for the whole match. (Arkansas 3-gun)

I promise not to let the M1A trounce on your overgrown matell toy too bad

See you there, looking forward to it.

Thread drift off....

As for Major is it worth it ? as some one mentioned earlier... Look at what the winners at the Big matches are shooting.... An A is an A wheather you shoot .308, .223 or .50bmg.

I personally enjoy shooting my M1A as Rifles are made with wood stocks

and it is real satisfying when there is a long list of .223 shooters below you on the stats sheet

It all boils down to personal prefrence as far as the platform goes, IMHO when they came out with the Tactical Division they should have limited the Mags to 20 rounds max that would help even things out just a little as everyone would be in the same boat as far as round management goes.

Good Luck and see you at the range somewhere, sometime.

Hopalong

[BPiatt]

Clipped from hopalong's post..........Tactical Division they should have limited the Mags to 20 rounds max that would help even things out just a little as everyone would be in the same boat as far as round management goes.

Now there's an idea that could make the major guns worth shooting.

Course design is the factor why nobody uses major. In IPSC the speed factor is too important, making recoil and reloading a major gun a hinderance. Mystery Mtn./ DPMS tri-gun challenge scoring where 2 hits on target is all you want isn't the place to use major because any hole in paper counts the same.

For the five times I won SOF, every year I contemplated shooting major. Now I regret never trying it. Their courses didn't have enough paper targets to make it worth while. Many of their stages were steel only so it didn't matter what you hit it with.

If you had a match with mainly paper targets, perferably at distance, with stage round counts that didn't hinder the 20 round major magazines, and a point scoring system (like ipsc/sof... not the 2hit neutralize system) then the .308's would be a viable choice. The thing is, nobody will hold a match like that.

*** time will tell.... the 6.8 spc may change all this.

Bruce

[Wakal]

For the sake of experimentation (and my never-ending quest to substitute equipment for skill ), I set up an AR-10 the exact same way that I set up my Open AR-15.

Both guns are 18" stainless barrel turned to .750 diameter with JP "Tank Brakes", free floated handguards, Duckbill pistol grips, ACE SOCOM "folding" stocks, Leupold scopes, OKO on the handguards, JP triggers. As alike as I could make them.

The AR15 is just...faster. No two ways around it. Even after we shaved three full ounces off the bolt carrier, the AR15 can double tap A-zones at 50m .05s faster...every time...than the AR10. I don't have mad crazy skills (1st A, TX and NM 3-Guns), so actual results may vary

Even with the supply of working 30-round magazines I have set up for the AR-10, I don't think I'll run it in the big shows. With working 40's and a Beta for the AR, the faster cycling and larger magazines just save too much time off the ubercool .308. Sigh.

Alex

[Paule]

Bruce, you are spot on. Course design and scoring are the two big hindrances to shooting major in a non-"He-Man" category. Maybe that will change over time, but it would be a lot harder to run a big match with paper targets at distance. And most sites would have trouble setting reactive targets at long enough ranges to give major calibers a natural advantage.

[benny hill]

If ark. has a lot of paper, w/ hardcover & tight shots, the 308 can do well on scoreing. If it is all open targrts, then it is a little slow but not much. I shoot it at about the same speed as my ar, but is slower to load even though I have 30 rd. mags,

[kurtm]

If Benny promises to use his AR-10 in Tacticle, I will shoot an M1A in Limited...How about it Benny?? Up for a test of skill?? You too Hopalong. You can keep us honest! KURTM

[hopalong]

Kurt,

I ALWAYS Shoot the M1A..

I just hope Benny doesn't mind them eating his overgrown Matell toy !!!!

See Ya'll there.

Sam

Yes I will bring a crying towel, (maybe for me too)

[kurtm]

Yahoo!! Now remember it is surplus ball ammo just like the first post states!! It can be the best surplus ball you can get, but it has to be BALL ammo, none of this 110gr cheater match ammo ( I know it makes major!! but none of that!). How about it Benny?? I know Hopalong is game for it! KURTM

[Zak Smith]

Why is everyone assuming Major == 308?

You ought to be able to make Major rifle in an AR15 platform with 6.5 Grendel or 6.8SPC (soon?).

-z

[hopalong]

Zak my shooting compadre....

you mentioned that we should be having those calibers soon.....

I(we, Kurt, Benny, ect) are talking about what is available now to John Q shooter who wants to get into this thing without specializing too much.

Correct me if I'm wrong there guys

Hopalong

[kurtm]

Zak:

once those "cool" cartridges are all ramped up and running out of AR's left and right, tell me wich one you will pick to hunt large game with, you know, like Elk and Black Bear. Major isn't just a number on a page it is also how it performs in the real world. .308 Winchester has a pretty good track record, for general use. I am not saying that these cool new "major" cartridges won't do it, I remember reading about a guy hunting Black Bear with a .22 jet, I'm just saying that they are "paper major" and I for one wouldn't take a 6.8 after Leopard or Lion, but would feel rather fine with a .308, how about you?? KURTM

[NukeMech]

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I'm going to try it. I've got a ways to go before I am good enough to matter anyhow. May as well have fun while I can. What is available for 30rd mags for the AR10?

[rhino]

kurtm is right ... anything less than .308 is only "major" for girly-men!

Aaron ... ask that same question again on Sept. 14th!

[NukeMech]

I think an "A" hit with 308 should be worth the same as any two hits with a 223, but I think I'll just be happy shooting... I personally think it will be decades before the 6.8 SPC will be a viable option for me. For one I am cheap, and two I am cheap and three it will take that long for ammo surplus to develop, and finally I am too cheap to stray from Nato calibers.

[benny hill]

O.K. kurt, let's see if old age & treachery will over come youth & skill. Since you are my best compadre don't take this ass whipping personal.

[warpspeed]

To answer the original question I invisioned the following senario:

Taran Butler can choose between his current AR set-up in 223 or the suggeted 20" AR10-A4, 20rd M1-A mags, Surplus .308 ammo.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think he will choose the 223 rifle

[Patrick Sweeney]

Let's not get distracted from the question. "Major, is it worth it?"

Unlike pistol, the scoring disparity in rifle is in favor of Minor. However, as a compounding problem, the most common Major round is far over the Major threshold.

A .30 150 gr bullet at 2650 fps is a 397 PF. And that's mild. It isn't any problem to buy ammo that delivers 410-415 PF. To put that in perspective, who would shoot in a handgun match and willingly shoot Major with ammo that posted a 205-210 PF?

If Major is to be anything but a curiosity or the choice of "Real Men" two things need happen: a load (.30, 6.5, 6.8, whatever) that delviers a decent trajectory with a PF at 330-335, and scoring that rewards the extra recoil. Better yet, lift the Major threshold up to something real, like 375-385, and reward rifle Major with 5 points in the A, B & C zones. Make it 2 in the D. Make Minor 5-3-1.

Short of that, Major is not worth it. Too much recoil and not enough points for it. The 6.8 might change that, but then again it might not.

[AH6IP]

A tad of a thread drift, but-

I was lucky(or unlucky) enough to be involved in part (Military) of the testing of the 6.8. All were different hand loads to find the "just right" combo. Ya know what-they just couldn't find it, at least in the loads(and there were a lot)that we had available for testing. Accuracy was just OK, nothing to write home about. And FWIW-when loaded to make "major", we saw alot of primer blowouts, etc.

My 2 pesos.