Reduced sized pistol targets for pistol ? (as used in Multi-Gun)

[Flexmoney]

I'd like to hear thoughts on allowing the use of reduced sized paper targets in USPSA pistol matches. These are already floating around out there, and are in use for multi-gun matches.

Is there any big down side to giving the Match Director some options? I know that I have Match Directors in the Indiana and Michigan Sections that are for them.

They allow for simulating distance on shooting bays/positions that otherwise would be troublesome. (Sure, you can paint up lots of hardcover and such...extra work, and doesn't quite do the same job.)

[Mark R]

Flex, I'd be up for it if USPSA would allow it. They would work great on smaller bays giving the illusion of distance.

Rockcastle ProAm 2012 used them for bay rifle shooting and they were fun to shoot...especially with 1 A/Head or two on paper scoring.

[Bunchies95]

Personally I like it, except when those MI guys place them at the distance they would have been had they been full size targets Even at 10 yards that A zone is TINY! They are great for simulating a tight shot without resorting to a penalty if you happen to drop one in hard cover or a no shoot.

I would think that it will have to be explicitly defined in the rule book, as the current mini targets floating around aren't uniform in sze.

The only thing they are lacking is the ability to simulate the various holds at different distances. That is the real challenge to distance shooting, knowing how much bullet rise/drop you may have at that particular distance.

[ROY NEAL]

Hey Michael,

Just because it was at my range that you got to experiance the IPSC minitargets, you don't have to be such a hater. Otherwise, next time you visit we will make sure that you have to reshoot the big bay stage at least two times in order to tire you out as punishment!!!!!!! Glad we could include you in our summer match here in Southern Michigan north of Canada.

Flex-Obviously you know how I feel about them as I really took a liking to them after shooting the IPSC Canada Ontario Provincial match. The one issue that IPSC has is that you cannot mix and match the size of the targets. In other words, if you use one mini target, all the targets have to be the same size. I would like to see USPSA include these targets as regulation and allow the mixing of the size (not metrics and classics) just like we allow allow for full size Pepper Poppers and US Poppers in a stage. That is where these targets really come into thier own, especially on ranges such as mine where distance of shots is hard to pull off when you only have 23 yards as your deepest bay. The targets are 60% of the regular sized targets. They are a great way to slow shooters down a bit by making them aim or seperate the big kids from the rest of the pack if you offer them to be shot on the move. There may have even been a situation where one of these was put on a double swinger so I have heard as competitors were saying it was so unfair that it should be against the Geneva Convention.

This is as hot topic here in Michigan as many of the clubs have taken a liking to them and it has been an issue with the Section Coordinator, so in order to make things easier.......Flex-lead the push to get these approved for us. TargetBarn's Dave Zimmerman has these in stock for those of you wanting to order some. They come in packs of 50 and have the white backing just like our full sized targets.

[MarkCO]

I am definately FOR it. It does add some flexibility. If I were to write a rule, I would include a "recomendation" that they not be placed beyond 25 yards.

While they are in use in 3G, they are not allowed in USPSA MG, I'd be fore adding them there too.

I'll send a note to me AD right now since you all have a meeting this weekend.

COOL!

[Guest]

Got a box of the 1/2 sized targets (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/939467980/midwayusa-official-uspsa-target-1-2-size-cardboard) and have been using them for practice so I have some firsthand experience with these.

I think they have a place in USPSA, but as bunchies95 said there would have to be criteria/limits on their use. Using them for 50 yard shots would be inappropriate for our sport as would a hardcovered/noshoot covered head only at 5-10 yards. However, open targets out to about 10 yards would be fair. The targets in the link above are half sized, but that is by x-y linear dimensions not by square inches of the scoring area so the target looks pretty small. If a club had a small bay with limited area you could make a challenging and fun stage using them.

The pros of the targets are that the A zone is tight and forces front sight/dot discipline, you can put a 3 or 4 target array on regular target stand (the targets are light and plenty stiff so you only need to staple the target on one side to the upright stake), and they are less expensive.

The cons are that since they are smaller and the bullet holes are the same sized so they get beat up and tattered quicker. With close targets where people are getting mainly a-zone hits the target may need to be changed out during to match as the A-zone may get obliterated and be nothing but tape pasters upon tape pasters with no scoring lines.

I enjoy using these for practice, and they have helped me as after shooting the 1/2 sized targets the normal metric target looks huge (which kind of leads to another problem...shooting too fast during matches). BTW - They would put a whole new slant on running an el prez or bill drill...they definitely bring the HF down!

Edited December 5, 2012 by Bamboo

[old506]

You can count me in as being for them!

I would not be for arbitrary distance rules though. Leave the distance rules out and (limiting) mixing of targets out. We don't need more rules that we will have to change down the road. We don't have distances on mini poppers for example, why on a mini paper target? Some clubs like to include long shots, tight shots, option to go prone (maybe at the end of a stage). Let the clubs decide what is "fair" for them.

Freestyle starts with stage design. Long live Freestyle!

[Bunchies95]

Hey Michael,

Just because it was at my range that you got to experiance the IPSC minitargets, you don't have to be such a hater. Otherwise, next time you visit we will make sure that you have to reshoot the big bay stage at least two times in order to tire you out as punishment!!!!!!! Glad we could include you in our summer match here in Southern Michigan north of Canada.

Flex-Obviously you know how I feel about them as I really took a liking to them after shooting the IPSC Canada Ontario Provincial match. The one issue that IPSC has is that you cannot mix and match the size of the targets. In other words, if you use one mini target, all the targets have to be the same size. I would like to see USPSA include these targets as regulation and allow the mixing of the size (not metrics and classics) just like we allow allow for full size Pepper Poppers and US Poppers in a stage. That is where these targets really come into thier own, especially on ranges such as mine where distance of shots is hard to pull off when you only have 23 yards as your deepest bay. The targets are 60% of the regular sized targets. They are a great way to slow shooters down a bit by making them aim or seperate the big kids from the rest of the pack if you offer them to be shot on the move. There may have even been a situation where one of these was put on a double swinger so I have heard as competitors were saying it was so unfair that it should be against the Geneva Convention.

This is as hot topic here in Michigan as many of the clubs have taken a liking to them and it has been an issue with the Section Coordinator, so in order to make things easier.......Flex-lead the push to get these approved for us. TargetBarn's Dave Zimmerman has these in stock for those of you wanting to order some. They come in packs of 50 and have the white backing just like our full sized targets.

Well Roy, if I remember right, I had a good time and was planning on coming back again next time I am in the area. I might have to rethink this position if you put those things on a swinger. I have a hard enough hitting swingers as is...and now you want to make the target SMALLER?

That being said, I ran a stage this weekend that had 1650 penalty points between 32 shooters. Only one guy ran it clean (not me). I think I made that stage a little too hard. A no shoot behind a mini popper at 25 yards, TX Star @ 15 through soft cover, and targets anywhere between 3 and 30 yards is rough.

But you are right, they will seperate the everyday shooters from those who really really know how to make their gun run.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Bunchies95

[Bunchies95]

I think they have a place in USPSA, but as bunchies95 said there would have to be criteria/limits on their use. Using them for 50 yard shots would be inappropriate for our sport as would a hardcovered/noshoot covered head only at 5-10 yards. However, open targets out to about 10 yards would be fair. The targets in the link above are half sized, but that is by x-y linear dimensions not by square inches of the scoring area so the target looks pretty small. If a club had a small bay with limited area you could make a challenging and fun stage using them.

I wasn't stating that their should be limits on their use. Just that they need to be uniform in size. We would need something exactly like Appendix B3 to show where all the scoring lines should be. Put them out to 50 yards if you want, you may just start a revolt against you as MD though.

[Guest]

Ok I see now - sorry, didn't mean to misrepresent what you posted.

[MarkCO]

After responding above, and sending out some e-mails I did get some responses. While I am NOT for changing the 2 ful sized approved targets we have, the humanoid "small" target could have some unintended political consequences. I see no down side to allowing the reduced size turtle targets at all.

[glefos]

My vote is against the use of reduced size targets in level II and higher pistol only matches.

If they are used at level I, I vote NOT to mix them with full size targets. Similar to not mixing metric and classic.

[Flexmoney]

If they are used at level I, I vote NOT to mix them with full size targets. Similar to not mixing metric and classic.

I never understood why we shouldn't mix metric and classic? Any thoughts on that?

The only thing I can think of (with reduced targets mixed with full-sized) is that some might view a stage setup as having adults and kids? (which might be the political aspect that MarkCO mentioned??)

[remoandiris]

If the purpose is to give the illusion of distance, wouldn't NOT mixing them with normal sized targets eliminate that benefit? More than 10 yds out and the mini-targets would get really small. Could put a mini at 5 yds and a regular sized at 30 yds.

I guess it could cut down on stage reset time...instead of walking 25 yds to paste a target you only have to walk 12 yds or something like that.

One question on these...will they work with standard sized target stands or do they require a mini target stand?

Edited December 5, 2012 by remoandiris

[MarkCO]

I never understood why we shouldn't mix metric and classic? Any thoughts on that?

The only thing I can think of (with reduced targets mixed with full-sized) is that some might view a stage setup as having adults and kids? (which might be the political aspect that MarkCO mentioned??)

Mixing target styles does not bother me in the least. Reduced sized metric mixing with the full sized metrics, yes that is it and the more I think about it the more I think it should be prohibited. Classics (turtles) reduced size gets all the advantages and none of the potential pitfalls. Enthusiastic yes from me!

Edited December 5, 2012 by MarkCO

[forddriver]

I like them when they are in the shoot house at blackwater. (makes you focus instead of running through as fast as your feet can take you.)

I wish terry would put some all the way out on the 200 yard bay! That would make things interesting.

[ummm]

As long as they're used sparingly, I don't suppose it's a great evil, but isn't it true that they only mimic distance? Issues such as bullet hole to target size ratio mean scoring would be different compared to full-sized targets.

More distance also means more visual disruption -- there's more dust in the air between objects at greater distances, more chances for shadows and dappled lighting and glare and the whole ball of wax.

If it were a perfect replica on a reduced scale, we could use 1/50th targets and hold Nationals inside a phone booth. Wouldn't have to get up from your comfy chair to tape targets.

[konkapot]

I've used them extensively in practice and have found that "something" isn't quite right; I think poster ummm nailed it with regards to bullet hole/target size ratio.

It also seems that a 10 yd target (although a reduced size) does not amplify marksmanship issues like a true 25 yd target.

Maybe do a trial period; Level 1 matches only for 12 months and see.

FY42385

[Flexmoney]

I just remembered that I had a bit of video with me shooting them at a "fun match" in Michigan. This setup seems like a very proper use of reduced targets. They were used within one array (the first in the video). This is on the range that Roy mentions in post #4...and that is about as big as the bays are at that range.

(Yes, I am shooting a G26)

[DWFAN]

I'm up for allowing them for L1 matches.. out to 20yds or so. We use them in an indoor USPSAish practice night.

Not sure how I'd feel about seeing them at an Area match though.

[outerlimits]

Hoser rifle stages and airsoft...that's it.

Edited December 6, 2012 by outerlimits

[bikerburgess]

If they are used at level I, I vote NOT to mix them with full size targets. Similar to not mixing metric and classic.

I never understood why we shouldn't mix metric and classic? Any thoughts on that?

The only thing I can think of (with reduced targets mixed with full-sized) is that some might view a stage setup as having adults and kids? (which might be the political aspect that MarkCO mentioned??)

I am for both allowing a reduced scale target and allowing the mixing of targets. it would be the paper version of what we see in steel arrays, like a Pepper popper next to a mini pepper popper next to a plate, if this is not a problem how would a mix of target shapes and sizes be a problem?

I like anything that creates a shooting or mental challenge, and this would just give the stage designers one more tool to make the shooter think. I believe it's that thinking your way through a freestyle course that makes this sport fun and the more options we have in designing stages the better they will be.

Mike

[Mark K]

I am definately FOR it. It does add some flexibility. If I were to write a rule, I would include a "recomendation" that they not be placed beyond 25 yards.

While they are in use in 3G, they are not allowed in USPSA MG, I'd be fore adding them there too.

I'll send a note to me AD right now since you all have a meeting this weekend.

COOL!

I agree with Mark - I am all for it, as long as you do set a max distance for use. We already set min safety distance, etc.

Mark K

[ROY NEAL]

Flex,

That was a fun match (Plastic Fantastic). I couldn't believe how many shirts were donated to be shot on targets that day. Especially the Ford Employees volunteering to reshoot the stage with the GM shirts on it.....hmmmm.

Anyways, the minitargets should be an option all the way up to Level III match's as IPSC allows them. The point of the target is can the shooter hit what they are aiming at regardless of the size of the target? I have shot Level II & III's with hard cover targets at over 20 yards or head shots only at a target at 17 yards away being the closest you could get to the target if you let the mine cart go all the way to the end of the track without hitting the brakes (06 Area 2 Temple of Doom Minecart stage). Proper use will rest with the stage designer/match director. As in anything else, some will do it right and some will do it wrong. You can't legislate stupidity. Shooters will let the Match Director know verbally and they will vote with thier feet and wallets if the MD doesn't learn. You can't put a maximum distance on a particular type of target-what a nightmare that would become. With a little experiance, MD's will figure out where to best use this type of target. The mini does fit on the typical target stand by just pulling the target sticks towards each other a bit. They do get shot up a bit more than a full size but are easy and cheap to replace during the match.

The big difference I would like to see is that we allow the mixing of full size targets and mini targets on a stage where IPSC does not allow for that. This practice would allow for ranges such as mine that don't have lots of distance shots to have some challenging shots that don't require so much hard cover or no shoots. Plus, it just screws with some shooters (normally those who have not seen these before or don't practice on them). Kinda fun to see thier reaction instead of just focusing on the sights of thier pistol and pressing the trigger like normal. Besides, I enjoy anything that allows for the seperation of the big kids from the rest of the pack. I might not allways be successful in my endeavor but I will have fun while trying.

C'mon Kyle, FLEX some muscle's at the BOD meeting and get this done for us.

[Mark K]

All for mixing Classic and metric targets as well - HOWEVER, I would also like to see the elimination of the "B" scoring zone on the Metric Target, if you do that, if only because it would be easier for score sheets/scoring programs to not need the B zone.

Mark K