Bill H Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 I hate weasels. Not the 4 legged kind but the 2 legged ones.I get this term from one of Patrick Sweeney's posts. I have seen shooters begging for a double call when they know they launched a round into the trees.I have had shooters show me a no shoot they hit not caught by the RO and then hurry to sign their score sheets before anyone finds out. We should all own up to our scores,bad or good. And that's all I have to say about that.(for now) Bill H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 LOL @ Bill......... NO ONE would ever hurry to insure a no-shoot was not cought........ (Edited by Singlestack at 11:40 pm on Oct. 1, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Playing the game is not being a weasel. Escaping with a no-shoot, getting a reshoot or any other things that may happen are all just part of the game. And if I believe I shot a double, you better believe I'm going to make you prove that I didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H Posted October 2, 2001 Author Share Posted October 2, 2001 I am not talking about playing the game I am talking about cheating.When a shooter points at a hole in a no shoot and knows it is his but doesn't bring it to the attention of the RO that's cheating. If you think you have a double you have every right to get it checked and awarded if it is. If you KNOW that your shot didn't hit but try to get points and avoid a penalty be claiming a double that's cheating. Bill H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Sorry Bill , if the RO does not see a no-shoot that I shot too bad. I'm NOT going to point it out and I would not point out someone elses no-shoot to a RO either. It is the RO's responsibility to score the stage and to insure all targets are pasted. Thats the game. I would NOT try to get a double that I did not deserve but if there is any doubt you can bet I'm gonna play that game too. Call it what you want, I call it knowing the rules and using them to my advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Its not cheating unless you get caught hehe Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 I guess it's a matter of ethics and morals and some folks seem to lack both. I have pointed out hits that I made on a no-shoot to the RO and I don't beg for doubles. I don't want to win by being a slime bucket and knowingly taking a wrongful score is in my view pretty slimey. I am with Bill on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Thems some pretty strong words Ron....... Think I'll wait a bit before I reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMyers Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 I think I would have to side with Bill and Ron. I am very new to competative shooting and when I get my first win I want it to be 100% my shooting skill. If that first win were to be a "rules" win I would feel like a chicken-!@#$. Let your shooting skill speak for it's self. (Edited by GMyers at 10:44 pm on Oct. 2, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 GMyers, Actually, the thoughts posted here today are usually found in new shooters. I felt this way once, until I LOST due to a "scoring error", by 8 points. I believe given enough time to play and learn in the sport, most shooters come to the conclusion that while most of the competition rests on your shooting abilities, a portion of it IS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL and relies on other people. The RO's miss no shoots, or faults, or forget to record the time... the scorekeeper enters a miss or no-shoot as a D... the match director misses your name and awards your plaque to someone else... these all happen, without malice, but they do greatly affect your attitude towards how you play the game. (Edited by Shooter Grrl at 8:55 pm on Oct. 2, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMyers Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Shooter Grrl, I see your point. I guess my attitude will change when I get bumped due to rules rather that being out-shot. Right now I don't have to worry about that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Deleted to keep the peace. Sorry some of you guys missed this post, but I figured that I had to "toast" it to keep the peace. Besides, I am really catching hell on this one, lol. (Edited by Ron Ankeny at 1:44 pm on Oct. 3, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 I used to call Kathy the Queen of the Immaculate Double. I've scored a miss on more than one target of hers where she argued a double. I swear I shot a double at a big match this summer. I called both shots Alphas with my foo-foo gun, which is easy to do with a dot. Videotape shows dirt kicking up twice in the same spot, which is impossible to do with a miss. I shot the target square on from maybe 5 yards. The hole was questionable, and the RO said Alpha Mike, as did the match director (?!) on appeal. Tough break, but it's my fault I didn't spread them out enough to be scored two As. At the Desert Classic last year in the wash where you run by all those targets, they could be engaged from wide angles. I saw two people on my squad argue their oblong holes as doubles and have the RO take back his called Misses. Complete and utter bullshit. When I'm ROing, all you have to do is make distinctly different bullet radiuses and you'll get the hits from me. A slightly oblong hole in a target you engaged at an angle doesn't cut it. Oh yeah, just because the targets are close doesn't mean you can't miss. It's really easy to keep moving the gun and pull the trigger between the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Quote:I used to call Kathy the Queen of the Immaculate Double. I've scored a miss on more than one target of hers where she argued a double. And boy can Erik and I argue :-) You'll notice he said "Used to"... I really did believe most of those were doubles, not all mind you, some were just to pick on Erik and my husband when they RO me! I know better now that I can actually call my misses! (IF you call your shots, then you call your misses too, right?) Ron, in all cases, I'd hand back the extra money - without thought. And i would never ever tell someone I gave him a ten when I gave him a five. It's just the right thing to do... so there you have it, I have extremely high morals and ethics. I DO NOT CHEAT! However, let's make this perfectly clear, I do not believe that it is cheating when the RO misses a call and I don't point it out to him. This scenario is simply using the human advantage in a game we play with other humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Ron, First off, you did refer to anyone who did not point out a no-shoot to a RO as someone who lack ethics and morals. I do not steal or cheat but I will use the rules to my advantage. Thats why they are there. It is the RO's responsibility to score a stage, not the shooter, and if the RO misses a no-shoot then the rules just did me a favor. None of your analogys apply. They ALL include a violation of the rules weather they be social rules or USPSA rules. No one ever mentioned trying to BS a RO about a double in a bunch of tape. I never have suggested here or on the range that I shot a perfect double and whined for the score. If you have a problem with people who know the rules and play by them too bad. I would never cheat but I will play by the rules. What I hate is people who DON"T know the rules and try to apply their own set of standards to a GAME and then try to convince everyone else that they are rightous and moral. If you and Bill feel obliged to tell a RO about a no shoot, fine. Just don't be judgemental of people who play by the rules even if you don't agree with the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Singlestack: I am not trying to convince anyone that I am a self rightous, upright, uptight, duddly do right. I simply feel that it is wrong to accept a score that you didn't earn if you know you didn't earn it. Obviously we disagree on ethics and morals, so let's take a more legalistic approach to the issue. As a stats officer, when I sign the "statement of accuracy" that accompanies classifiers, I am taking an oath to the effect that the scores are "true and accurate". When you sign a scoresheet or a classifier sheet you too are taking an oath that to the best of your knowledge the score is "accurate and uncontested". The terms "accurate and uncontested" come directly from the most recent rulebook. Now, if a competitor signs a score sheet or a classifier and he/she knows that the score is not accurate, would that be cheating. I think, the answer is yes, it is cheating. I e-mailed John Amidon about this issue and I hope he replies. If he does reply I'll post his interpretation of the rules here. (Edited by Ron Ankeny at 3:30 pm on Oct. 3, 2001) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 I was trying to avoid the topic, but here's what I can't get past: If I know that I hit a no-shoot, and the R.O. doesn't notice it and I don't point it out, I still know at the end of the day that I hit the no-shoot. In my mind, this invalidates my score ---- and I can't feel good about the score. I'd rather come in last in every match for the rest of my life, than to win a single stage on such an oversight. Bottom line, my score should reflect my performance in shooting the stage or the match ---- not the R.O.'s competence in correctly scoring the stage. On a side note I agree with Ron's and Bill's ethical points as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Here's a couple of my thoughts: 1. This doesn't happen all that often folks!!! For me personally, it has happened ONCE, and NEITHER the RO nor I saw it, it was pointed out by another shooter after all was said and done. 2. And usually it happens that NEITHER the shooter, nor the RO see the penalty hit... it's usually pointed out by spectators after the fact. 2. Each stage and RO is a different situation - we are all rational adults with logical minds... a club situation with a new RO won't be handled the same as the "BigTime". I also did a quick read through of the USPSA Rulebook and it states that the RO is responsible for ensuring that the stage is scored and that the scoresheet is correct. At no time does the onus for scoring ever fall upon the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 I think I agree with half of the original post... if you endeavor to mislead or distract the RO, or in some other way prevent them from scoring a no-shoot, then you're cheating. However, if you shoot honestly, and the RO's score the stage honestly, and then learn after the fact that there was a no-shoot, you're not cheating. Now for the doubles... requesting the Range Officers to take a second look can not be a bad thing, and is certainly NOT cheating. And if you feel strong enough, pushing onward if you see an irregular hole. You paid to play, the people putting on the match are obligated to play by the rules. From a match officials point of view... if you go by the rule of benefit to the shooter, and you give the benefit to all, not just your buddies, and you're consistent in all your scoring, then you've done your job and there has been no foul to yourself or the shooters, even if you did miss a penalty shot. If there was a way to have a perfect match with perfect RO's that don't effect the outcome would Erik still beat me???? Just kidding, the point being that the RO's and their inconsistency can play a HUGE role in the outcome of our competitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Very well said David. Ron, The rule book does say "accurate and uncontested" and it is refering to the score as scored by the RO. Not the shooter. You are not cheating when you play by the rules. This has never happened to me (that I know of) but I would have no problem with it just as I would have no problem getting beat by it. I'm usually doing a lot of moaning and groaning when I do hit a no-shoot so there is little chanch of it being missed. Besides, someone always finds the need to yell loudly that they need a white paster........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Singlestack: I know what you mean when a guy yells for white tape and it echos all the way back to the stats shack like a bucket brigade, lol. Then there are the tapers who peel off a long strip of white and a strip of black tape and stick it across the front of their shirt when I am "on deck". I guess we can all agree to disagree on this one. Still seems to me that the rules require for the contestant to sign the score sheet only if they know that the score is accurate. Maybe I am wrong, it has happened before. I am anxious to see what USPSA has to say about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H Posted October 4, 2001 Author Share Posted October 4, 2001 David to make my original post clearer---I am talking about asking the RO to look for a double when you KNOW you didn't get a second shot on the paper.That is being dishonest no matter what any book says.If there is any doubt in your mind I have no problem asking to check for a double and I do it every now and then. What I am talking about is knowingly deceiving the RO. Bill Hearne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 I posted John Amidon's opinion regarding inaccurate scoresheets and/or shooters accepting a score that they know to be wrong because of a scoring error. I'll post it here too: Hi Ron, Thank you for taking the time to write me with your concerns. To answer your question bluntly, yes, it is cheating, unfortunately, there is no rule violation other than possibly US 10.4.1 or US 10.4.2, both in my opinion would be hard to prove. Rules 9.7.1 and 9.7.4 cover some on score sheets and 9.7.4 comes the closest to this situation, in fact it states that by both parties signing indicate that the time, scores and penalties are accurate and uncontested. Again this would be hard to prove, because obviously, the RO is unaware of the problem, and it becomes one persons word against the other. Range Officers are human and sometimes make mistakes, they don't see targets that were not taped, they don't see hits on no shoots, etc. It would at this time that the competitors integrity and sportsmanship should come into play and point out these errors, unfortunately, many feel that winning a plaque or free shoot is more important. Golf is considered a gentlemen's game, these guy's play for a lot more than a free shoot, plaque, or even a gun, but you see them step forward and remove themselves from contention because of a rules violation, I have yet to hear of any cheaters in golf, that is on the professional level :-). We can only hope that someday, our members will reach that level of integrity and step forward when they see a mistake, rather than rush to sign the score sheet and say, well I got one over on them. DVC, John Amidon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny D Posted October 10, 2001 Share Posted October 10, 2001 Since Bill H and I have shot together for a number of years (almost 18) I share his values concerning honesty and integrity in competition. I look at this subject from the point of the "Golden Rule" ( do unto others as ......). If I gain an unfair advantage knowingly, then I have no right to to complain when someone else gets that same advantage. I would rather err on the side of honesty than to gain an advantage I did not earn. Even if it costs me an award. As an aside to John Amidon's reply, I've shot many different types of competition. One thing thing I have always pointed out to people is that there is always a statement in most rulebooks that reads to the affect of (paraphrasing here) "Any questions that are not specifically addressed in these rules will be governed by the spirit of the intent of the rules and the spirit of fairness of competition". If you try to address every possible situation, you rulebook ends up as thick as a dictionary and requires an army of shooting "lawyers" to decipher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted November 23, 2001 Share Posted November 23, 2001 I accidently left a US popper standing in the refrigerator stage at the Area 8. After watching the RO score the other targets, I went to get a better look at the popper. I concluded that my hit was low, and the steel was in calibration. I was contemplating the chances that a calibration shot might be muffed, when the scorekeeper came over. She said I could have it calibrated. I said I was trying to make up my mind on that. Then she reached out toward the popper. It occured to me that this was the re-shoot right here. Without thinking I said "Don't touch it!" I told her I did not need the calibration, initialed the scoresheet, and walked away. She must have thaught I was a jerk, but I should have thanked her for helping me with the only performance I was proud of that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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