Sunset mags

[JD45]

Other forums are talking about in Jan. 2005, after the AWB sunset, the dozen or so republican congress members will cause AWB II to pass. So, once again, the magazines made between Sept.14th and the new law taking affect will be legal grandfathered parts. Do you think that there will be a mad rush with factories working around the clock to stockpile all they can? Also, I wonder if they aren't already doing this in stages and just holding back on marking mag tubes with "for LE only". I hope that we don't ever have another ban, but with all of the idiots being elected to congress you can bet that they will try for another.

[Chuck D]

Doesn't matter what they do Federally if you live in N.Y. Calif, Mass, N.J. Maryland and Hawaii.

For the rest of the country...my best wishes.

[blackdragon]

It's all about the $, Companys will do what ever is in their best interest. There are some exceptions of course. (nice cya).

Ivan

SCS Vegas

[Rob Boudrie]

Other forums are talking about in Jan. 2005, after the AWB sunset, the dozen or so republican congress members will cause AWB II to pass. So, once again, the magazines made between Sept.14th and the new law taking affect will be legal grandfathered parts. Do you think that there will be a mad rush with factories working around the clock to stockpile all they can? Also, I wonder if they aren't already doing this in stages and just holding back on marking mag tubes with "for LE only". I hope that we don't ever have another ban, but with all of the idiots being elected to congress you can bet that they will try for another.

The sunsetting of the AWB will also cause the LEO-only marked magazines to be legal.

So.... if the re-ban magazines, will all magazines which are legal the day before the ban goes into effect going to be grandfathered as well?

[Rob Boudrie]

Doesn't matter what they do Federally if you live in N.Y. Calif, Mass, N.J. Maryland and Hawaii.

For the rest of the country...my best wishes.

Actually, it matters indirectly. Since MA and I believe NY simply duplicate the federal ban, those states can absorb the supply of pre-ban magazines while other states use the new ones. When a MA resident is in a free state, it will be perfectly leval to take you buddy to the gunshop to buy a new >10 round mag to trade for his pre-ban mag of the same capacity.

[Barrettone]

Riddle me this Batman...If the AWB sunsets, will all previously "post ban" guns be allowed to have threaded muzzle breaks added to them, collapsable stocks, and such??? Will manufacturers of AR-15 lowers go back to manufacturing lowers that can accept "lightning links" and not have a sear block??? If so, I'll buy 'em by the thousand. Not to do anything off-color, I just think the damn thing is gonna get passed again soon and they'll be worth a lot:o(. Also, what are the ramifications of the AWB being reinstated a couple of months later??? Keep in mind, legislators don't think of these things (mods made to "post ban" guns that is). You may pass the point of no return and not know it. Especially if you mate-up a new "preban style" lower with a "post ban" upper and then the it comes back. Also, what about mags that are preban that get "+2 extensions, what of them if the above scenario takes place. Sounds like it could become a Pandoras Box. What about "street sweeper" mags??? Saiga makes a mag fed shotgun that is just the ticket for open division (ala IPSC) with more mag capacity (drum mag?). Just a few things to ponder. Let me know your thoughts.

Jeff

[38supPat]

When is the date of the sunset?

[diehli]

9/14/04

[diehli]

Riddle me this Batman...If the AWB sunsets, will all previously "post ban" guns be allowed to have threaded muzzle breaks added to them, collapsable stocks, and such???

Yes.

Will manufacturers of AR-15 lowers go back to manufacturing lowers that can accept "lightning links" and not have a sear block???

Isn't that for FA weapons? If so, that's a result of the GCA of '68.

Also, what are the ramifications of the AWB being reinstated a couple of months later???  Keep in mind, legislators don't think of these things (mods made to "post ban" guns that is).  You may pass the point of no return and not know it.  Especially if you mate-up a new "preban style" lower with a "post ban" upper and then the it comes back.

Laws like this aren't retroactive... period.

Also, what about mags that are preban that get "+2 extensions, what of them if the above scenario takes place.

Same situation as above.

What about "street sweeper" mags???  Saiga makes a mag fed shotgun that is just the ticket for open division (ala IPSC) with more mag capacity (drum mag?).

Not sure about this one. I thought it was an AWB thing, but now I'm not sure. If it is an AWB thing, then they should be legal again.

[Barrettone]

Hey 300 LB Gorilla:

Before the AWB, the AR-15 lowers had a different configuration inside. Colt voluntarily (before AWB) added a "sear block" to keep unscrupulous people from installing a "lightning link", which essentially retards the sear to allow it to not engage, and therefore it would go full-auto (you also had to put in a hammer, trigger, selector, spring and bolt of M-16 lineage (either 3-shot burst or full auto) with the "link" to make it select-fire. Everything but the link is legal to own and install, as the above components will function just fine in semi-auto guns. But, add that link.... Now, other manufacturers, such as Olympic and American Spirit Arms left their inner configurations alone until AWB came along, and then the internal mods started to keep them from being "easily converted". Keep in mind that Colt supplies the military, so they caved a little in the civilian market with the sear blocks to keep the pentagon brass happy so they would renew that precious military contract. AK-47's are now AK-74's for this same reason (mag considerations as well). Now, it would still be illegal to "create" a full-auto gun (ala '68), but that is why prebans held a lot of alure (at least non-blocked lowers) did, as they "could" be converted in a pinch. Get the idea???

[Patrick Sweeney]

Jeff, Jeff, you've got to slow down.

Colt voluntarily modifed their guns in an attempt to curry favor. Other makers have not done so. I have a truckload of ARs on hand for the latest book, and the internal configurations reflect nothing so much as machining ability and attempts at producing a tight or loose fit. Some might be interpreted as an attempt at forestalling a drop-in auto sear, but others are just done "that way" to give the rear assembly pin more surface area.

As for the AWB going away, when the law expires it is as if it never happened. Best example: Prohibition. If, the day after the Volstead act was repealed, you were drinking a beer brewed before repeal, there was no offense you could be charged with. (Except perhaps drunk & disorderly.)

As for magazines for Saigas, they may have an additional hurdle: the AWB/94 covered produciton, but other laws cover importation. Even when the AWB/94 sunsets, you must be careful in building up the "uber-AK" as imported guns are covered under other laws.

I don't follow the AK-47/AK-74 line. Whuzzat? And wasn't I supposed to call you? Sorry, out of town for a while.

[Chuck D]

Rob, NY laws hinge upon the ability (or willingness) of the State to enforce the magazine capacity law. News coming from Albany points to the State requiring the manufacturer to "cease" shipments of hi-cap magazines to the State for any reason other than LEO use.

No doubt this measure will pass.

One way or another, NY will attempt to keep hi-cap mags out of the State. Sure you can "horse trade" mags in other States... but is it worth the risk? I said this LONG ago...USPSA shooting in Open and Limited Division isn't worth a prison sentence in Attica.

[Rob Boudrie]

Rob, NY laws hinge upon the ability (or willingness) of the State to enforce the magazine capacity law. News coming from Albany points to the State requiring the manufacturer to "cease" shipments of hi-cap magazines to the State for any reason other than LEO use.

No doubt this measure will pass.

One way or another, NY will attempt to keep hi-cap mags out of the State. Sure you can "horse trade" mags in other States... but is it worth the risk? I said this LONG ago...USPSA shooting in Open and Limited Division isn't worth a prison sentence in Attica. 

Chuck -

I am not talking about "unlawful" horsetrading. Since I am more up to speed on MA law than NY, I will speak from that context (although I nthink the NY situation is the same).

The MA law re-states the federal ban, but without the expiration period (in addition to requiring a "Class A MA license" to posess a > 10 round mag).

If the federal ban sunsets, all magazines which were made PRIOR to the original federal ban remain 100% LEGAL in MA for persons who hold a "Class A License to Carry Firearms".

If a MA resident was, for example, visiting KY and went to local gunshop and bought new Glock mags, and gave them to their buddy in exchange for pre-ban Glock mags, these would be legal to posess in MA. That is the nature of the "horsetrading" to which I refer. Similarly, distributors could ship inventory of pre-ban mags to dealers for sale in MA (does the planned NY law prohibit shipment of new mags to NY, or of pre-ban mags as well?)

--------------

ps to the person who said "Laws like this aren't retroactive... period."

An ex-post facto law is one which states "If you owned a wondergun at an earler date, that is a crime for which you can now be prosecured even if you disposed of the gun before the effective date of the law. " Passing a law stating "wonderguns are lno longer legal to posess, and all existing ones must be disposed of" is not a "retroactive" law, but one "without grandfathering." If you doubt that such laws can be passed you may want to ask the former handgun owners in Morton Grove, IL or former >10 round mag owners in Hawaii. You can also ask anytone who used to own a sawed-off or short barreled shotgun in Massachusetts which until 1998 could be legally posessed with a combination of a state handgun license and federal tax stamp (MA banned them with no grandfathering).

[TBF]

Re Streetsweeper :

I am fairly certain ( this does not mean I am correct ) that the BATFE declared the original Streetsweeper to be a " Destructive device " and thus to be virtually illegal for civilians.

This was a ruling unrelated to the AWB.

Travis F.

[Barrettone]

Thanks for all the responses guys....It appears that some of these things will probably be brought forth as we get closer to it actually happenning. Holy crap Pat...Yer alive!!!! PM me so I can get your new e-mail. I need a chamfering job done on my 625 before Area 5. Sorry to hijack the thread. BTW...Pat the AK-74's, as I understand it, won't accept the hicap AK-47 mags...that is what I was driving at. I also see your point on the import rules for the Saiga...didn't even think of that one.

Jeff

[diehli]

Rob... good point. Think of the backlash, however. I was thinking more along the lines of individuals being prosecuted for a crime... whoops.

TBF... THAT's what it was... thanks!

B1... AK47 and AK74 are different caliber rifles... that might have something to do with the interchangeability of magazines.

AK47

AK74

[Carlos]

"As for magazines for Saigas, they may have an additional hurdle: the AWB/94 covered produciton, but other laws cover importation. Even when the AWB/94 sunsets, you must be careful in building up the "uber-AK" as imported guns are covered under other laws."

I think the point you are making is this: pistol-gripped AKs and Saiga shotguns cannot be imported into the USA even after the AWB. THat's why there are NO AKs in the US right?

Wrong - there are tons of AKs floating around the US; the guns were imported as 100% foreign "sporters" (i.e. thumbhole stock of "sporting firearms") and turned into US made guns. How? They arrive in the US as banned guns & leave as US made guns.

(from ATF website) "Nonsporting firearms are still prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. sections 922(l) and 925(d)(3). Because the vast majority of SAWs are nonsporting, they generally cannot be imported.SAWs may be imported into a Customs Bonded Warehouse or Foreign Trade Zone because the sporting purposes test does not apply to these imports."

What happens at the warehouse? US made parts are installed to create a "US made" firearm that, like the AR-15, does not have to meet the "sporting purposes import test". Norinco makes an AR-15 in China; it cannot be imported into the US, while the Norinco copy of the Winchester 97 cowboy shotgun can be imported. Another example is your fixed sight Glock pistol. Did you know its banned from import without adjustable sights? Yep - your fixed sight Glock arrived with fixed sights that were then removed & sent back to Austria.

What about Saiga magazines? No restrictions now. The ban died. It included the shotgun "evil features" ban/ limit on mag capacity. HOWEVER, the Saiga importer, EAA does not get it. They don't know the law & just can't figure it out. They have the ability to sell you the mags but wrongly claim that they are still banned. Call them & you will hear it for yourself. There is such a thing as being cautious and then there is being ignorant & lazy. I hope that someone comes to their senses over at EAA.

[Chuck D]

Rob:

New inventory coming into NY State MUST be N.Y. compliant meaning they MUST be shipped with a fired shell casing, pass the "drop test" AND be shipped with a 10 round magazine ... period.

I seriously doubt that you'll see a "standard capacity" magazine shipped with a new (or refurbished) firearm from a manufacturer into NYS .

I went to the largest Distributor in the State yesterday looking to buy (with a dealers license) a new Beretta 92. I was told of a three week wait due to the fact that they have not received any "NY Compliant" 92's from Beretta. They don't expect any for a little less than a month from now.

Federal ban sunset or not...it's STILL dark in certain galaxies of our universe.

For the rest of you...enjoy the sunshine.

[uscbigdawg]

Riddle me this Batman...If the AWB sunsets, will all previously "post ban" guns be allowed to have threaded muzzle breaks added to them, collapsable stocks, and such???

Yes. Even in California.

Rich

[Rob Boudrie]

Rob:

New inventory coming into NY State MUST be N.Y. compliant meaning they MUST be shipped with a fired shell casing, pass the "drop test" AND be shipped with a 10 round magazine ... period.

I seriously doubt that you'll see a "standard capacity" magazine shipped with a new (or refurbished) firearm from a manufacturer into NYS .

Agreed and understood.

But, it is my understanding that:

1. It is legal for a NY resident to buy pre "1994 ban" mags out of state and bring them in to NY.

2. It is legal for a NY dealer to obtain pre "1994 ban" mags out of state and bring them in to NY for retail sale.

3. It is NOT legal to bring post "1994 ban" mags into NY (with the usual LE angency exception)

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Rob

[Chuck D]

Rob...your absolutely right.

The problem is..."who is willing to do so?"

The "average" dealer won't be bothered...outside of IPSC shooting, the market isn't there.

The NY dealer won't bother to put up with the "rules stuff". If you want 30 round AR mags...call a mail order house or visit your local gun show.

The only "gray area" here is the "pre 1994 mag" stuff. The law isn't clear and thankfully for us, the NY State Police ( in charge of enforcement) isn't interested (or able) to track down all possibilities for possession.

[wide45]

As if the mail order stores are going to maintain a pre-ban inventory, for sale to NY.

[Bucky]

BTW...Pat the AK-74's, as I understand it, won't accept the hicap AK-47 mags...that is what I was driving at.

Jeff

The AK-47 is a 7.62 x 39 and the AK-74 is 5.45 x 39, which is probably the reason.

[Irishlad]

A confusing bit of information. If you go to the Mec-Gar website and "hit" the "ordering info" it details by state the new regulations for mag purchases.

It lists NO magazines above 10 rounds in NYC, but lists New York State... no magazines above 17 rounds??

So, I'm confused or they are confused...or both.

[Chuck D]

They're confused. There are NO "special exceptions" for areas in NYS outside of NYC.