Recommendation: Stock 3 in 9mm or .40 cal?

[RNA]

So I'm definitely sure I'll be getting a Stock 3 whenever they arrive, but I've been tossing and turning something fierce trying to decide between which caliber to get: 9mm or .40 cal. The gun will be primarily for home defense and range time (to practice proficiency, not for competition). I've done nothing but read as many threads and watch as many videos discussing the pros and cons of each, but I'd love if you Tanfog gurus would help me decide considering some different factors:

1. Ammo commonality vs Ammo flexibility

I currently own a Ruger 10/22 Target (.22lr), Glock 17 (9mm), HK USP (.45 ACP), and a Ruger GP100 (.357). I would say the gun I feel most comfortable grabbing for home defense would be my Glock, because I shoot it the best and it has a whole 5 more rounds in it if I had to defense myself against multiple home invaders. Part of me would like to keep ammo commonality with my Glock (as a main weapon/back up weapon combo), but another part of me values having a gun in all of the most common calibers (of which .40 cal is currently my missing link). What say you?

2. Increased capacity vs. Increased power

Without starting a huge battle between the caliber camps, it seems like the consensus is: A) .40 leaves a bigger hole and has better penetration, thus making it just slightly better than the 9mm in a defensive situation -- negligible if using top 9mm loads 9mm weapons have a bit more capacity and less recoil, making it slightly easier to use in a defensive situation -- negligible if one practices proficiency with the .40 cal. I will say that I would like the weapon to reliably carry 15+1 without a super huge competition base pad sticking out of the bottom. Is this possible with a .40 cal Tanfog? (And as a side note, is there a capacity difference between large frame and small frame Tanfogs of the same caliber?)

3. Cheaper range ammo vs. More reliable defense ammo

So the maxim is that 9mm is a great defensive caliber because one can afford more practice, thus becoming better trained with the weapon. That's true, and practice makes perfect. However, from what I've read, only the top end 9mm loads (name brand JHP in +p+ or +p) reliably perform to standards approaching the potency of the .40 cal. So is practicing with round nose standard loads really going to help you if you're running said top shelf ammo for defense? My logic tells me that practicing with one load and relying on another for defense is anathema to preparedness for a gunfight.

And although more expensive to practice with, top .40 cal loads are equal in price (and sometimes even cheaper) than top 9mm loads. If push comes to shove, I've read that the expansion and penetration of the .40 cal is much less ammo dependent than the 9mm. Therefore if for whatever reason you had to rely on cheap, scavenged ammo for defense, the .40 cal will inherently provide you with more consistent high performance than non top shelf 9mm ammo. But this inherent difference in platforms dovetails into my next consideration...

4. Decreased gun wear vs. High energy performance

The energy of the .40 cal is unquestionably greater than the 9mm. Granted modern bullet design closes the gap between 9mm and .40 in soft targets (people), the .40 has more power to blast through obstructions shielding the soft target, such as heavy clothing, buttons, glass, wood, brush, etc. This increased energy really gives me confidence in the .40's capabilities. I understand it's all about shot placement, but who knows what type of objects the bad guy could have stuffed in his jacket pockets.

However, this comes at a cost. As I understand it, Mr. Newton says that for every action there is an opposite but equal reaction -- hotter shooting guns are subject to increased wear, tear and damage (as demonstrated by .40 cal and 10mm Witnesses). Would the wear rate of a .40 be that much greater than a 9mm? And is the increased wear rate a fair trade off for the increased performance potential of the high energy .40 cal? I fully intend for the Stock 3 to be my grail gun; my pride and joy. With that being said, I want it to last until I'm an old man with a walker.

Thanks in advance for your perspectives. I hope I don't sound like a total neurotic newb, but I want this caliber discussion to go deeper than "cheaper ammo, more practice" and "if you can't finish it in 12 rounds you have bigger problems," LOL! Cheers all!

Edited October 18, 2012 by RNA

[Hi-Power Jack]

* like to keep ammo commonality with my Glock but .40 cal is currently my missing link).

* .40 leaves bigger hole and better penetration, -- negligible if using top 9mm loads 9mm a bit more capacity and less recoil, -- negligible if one practices with the .40 cal.

* is practicing with round nose standard loads going to help if you're running top shelf ammo for defense?

* hotter shooting guns are subject to increased wear,

1. Only YOU can determine if you'd rather have a 9mm like your Glock or a new .40 -

I don't see any large advantage/disadvantage over either approach - very personal,

so it depends on YOU.

2. The .40 isn't that much more powerful and the 9mm doesn't carry that many more

cartridges - very small difference since there is great 9mm ammo and hi cap mags.

3. Yes, practicing with ball ammo is GREAT - very small difference between the feel

of it and "hi performance" ammo - and if you reload - you can have best of both worlds.

4. Can't imagine you'll shoot either gun/caliber enought to wear it out, either the 9mm

or the .40. If the gun is $700, and you don't reload, you'll spend at least $1,000

for ammo for the 9mm to start to "wear it out" - and then you might need a few small

inexpensive parts for the gun - and I'd think the gun should run for $10,000 worth

of factory ammo? If you're spending $10,000 for ammo, I wouldn't be averse to buying

another $700 gun.

Simply a matter of personal preference here, esp if you reload your practice ammo, IMHO.

If you don't reload, I'd stick with the 9mm, matter of fact, I reload & still stuck with

the 9mm

Edited October 18, 2012 by Hi-Power Jack

[pivoproseem]

There's no real need for .40, unless you want to shoot Limited major in USPSA. A magwell+shorter grips and an SA trigger would transform it into a capable gun. Otherwise, stick with 9mm. I have two .40 Tanfos, and one 9mm. Both of the .40s have been used for USPSA and the 9mm was used for IDPA. You can always buy another top end in a different caliber if you want....

[FightFireJay]

Wow, this is a tough choice and one that many people make. My decision was based on including .45ACP, as well as 9mm and .40 S&W.

When I looked at all 3, I found that the .40 was the perfect balance for ME. Recoil was fine, more energy than the 9mm (often equally .45), more velocity than .45 (and often the 9mm), only losing 2 rounds in a magazine compared to 9mm, and retaining more that the .45. Common police issue, plinking ammo IS more expensive than 9mm, but not drastically.

I'm happy with my M&P 40 Pro (and Glock 23), but I also wouldn't hesitate to use a 9mm either.

I don't think there is a "wrong" answer for your question. I say go to a store to buy one and if you feel like you're making a mistake, buy the other! Let your gut lead the way, lol.

[RNA]

Thanks for the responses guys! Id still love to hear more suggestions, but you guys made great points. I'm still looking for an answer regarding capacity difference between large and small frame. I think it might come down to 9mm if the Stock 3s are small frame, or 40 if they come in large frame.

[KommBat]

I am a funny Guy!

I buy my guns for a Special purpose.

Sport, hunting, Defence...

IPSC Production-9mm

IPSC Standard- .40

Hunting-wrong Gun

Defence-dosen't matter

What's the Gun for????

[RNA]

It's going to be my main defense gun. I'm not familiar at all with competitive shooting. Why would the different types of shooting categories require different calibers?

[KommBat]

Defence Gun?

Buy a G19...or bettet 5-6 of them.

Put some 115gr +P Speer gold dots in the mag's and hide them in your house in different rooms.

Defensiv Gun means that you want to Hit COM at 3-6 Yards...often.

I Love my S3 but for CCW and so on I would pick a Glock 9mm.

Most reliable Gun I ever shot. Did aprox. 120.000 rd's trough my One.

5 ftf's with lead Bullets.

In Most Casey you dont Even need sights...may be you will Not see them anyway.

But you want a "bang" every Time you pull the trigger!

Since you allready own a G17 you know what I mean.

Dont mix up your defensiv guns...

[RNA]

Oh, I agree that glocks are great defensive guns, but I just don't love them. They have no soul or style. I want to love and take pride in my personal side arm, and I figure there has to be an auto loader reliable enough to depend on as much as flocks -- I'm hoping the Stock 3 is just the gun I'm looking for. So for everyone suggesting 9mm, should I not be concerned with the less reliable expansion of non to shelf ammo

[e-mishka]

I don't know if stock 3 is a best choice for a personal defence side arm. Its big and way to heavy for that, I guess if you run out of bullets you can use it to club someone

[Nealio]

I don't know if stock 3 is a best choice for a personal defence side arm. Its big and way to heavy for that

Too big and heavy?????

[FightFireJay]

I don't think the OP is talking about using his as a CCW, it's for home defense and range time.

I don't have direct experience with this gun, but I think as long as its lighter than a Desert Eagle in .50AE it won't be to heavy, it's certainly more maneuverable than a shotgun or even an SBR, which both get recommendations for home defense.

I say if it fits well in your hand (and the hand of any other possible users, like mom, grandma, kids, dog, etc) and its reliable then it is the gun for you! Sounds like you already lust for it, match made in heaven?

[RNA]

No, definitely not going to try to CCW that baby. Might get a CZ PCR or a Kahr for that. I know it's kind of an ignorant knee-jerk reaction, but over the past couple of days I've read a couple of stories in the newspaper about criminals (a pawn shop robber and a home invader) who were shot by carrying would-be victims (BRAVO!) but who were able to flee alive. I'm ashamed to say, but the first thing that jumps to my mind is the caliber they were shot with, not necessarily the placement. Can you guys think of a scenario (or shot) in which the 9mm might have fallen short while a .40 cal would have been enough to permanently incapacitate the perps?

[glknineteen]

The defensive shootings where the good guy wins is not about caliber, nearly as much as it is about shot placement and multiple hits in a small timeframe.If you pay attention to any real world operators, whether they be military, police, or otherwise, the winner is the guy who can put the most rounds into the bad guy the fastest. This is how you get the most effective incapacitation. This is why I carry either a 9mm (glock 19 or s&w mp 9c) or a 38sp. revolver. I know I can make good hits, and I can put a lot of rounds into critical mass quickly. They aren't good groups, but I don't miss the a or b zone, and all the hits are in the heart, lungs, kidneys, stomach areas, so I'm fine with that all day long.

[FightFireJay]

A couple months ago there was a guest on Tom Gresham's Gun Talk that did a study of shootings where the caliber and outcome was known.

He found 2 things that surprised me... And a couple that didn't.

1 - in half of the shootings only a single hit (you can't miss fast enough) on the bad guy stopped the fight (by either physically stopping or by the mental turn around followed by his a$$ following him out the door he came in.)

2 - the other half of the time, bad guys needed to be incapacitated before the fight was over.

2.1 - 22lr and 25 ACP did not do very well here

2.2 - 9mm, 40, 45 (and other common "full power" cartridges) did much better, and there was little difference between them.

2.3 - rifles and shotguns did the best with one of them (don't recall which) averaging about 1.5 hits to stop a fight.

Anyways... I bring this up to point out that the difference in calibers is likely NOT as much as we think as long as we stay in the full power range. I do recall he was a little fuzzy on where the border was (I would imagine .380 ACP doesn't make the cut but a .38 spl +P would?)

[kneelingatlas]

Let me introduce myself as a guy who does or has owned firearms in the following calibers: .22 short, .22lr, .22 mag, .38 special, .357 mag, .40s&w, .44 mag, .45 acp, 9mm, 10mm, 20ga, 12ga, .223, .300 savage and .30-06. MORE GUNS, FEWER CALIBERS!

Things can really get nuts when you have hundreds of rounds in most calibers with thousands in others; so once I bought my CZ Tactical Sport in 40 and started shooting limited and it was all I wanted to shoot I shed some calibers.

I have thee. 357 mag revolvers in the house and if you ask me they are the perfect pistol for HD; no safeties, no jams, devastating muzzle energy and if you need more than six shots to stop a threat in your home 1 practice more and 2 MOVE!

I have at one point owned both small and large frame Tanfos and I say large frames for long rounds and small frames for short rounds; 9 and 40 are small frame rounds in my book. Don't let anyone tell you there's only a 2 round difference between 9 and 40; it's 4 in small frame.

That being said, the justified use of lethal force is in a defensive manner; the lust for vengeance is a dangerous thing.

[cpa5oh]

Anybody have any updates on when the Stock 3's are going to be available here in the US?

[KommBat]

There is noting more to add to glk19' Post!

Working in LE for many years I have to say, its the trought!

You just can stop a badguy buy One or more of 3 indicators.

1. Pain! If he feels non...alcohol, narcotics or braindamage...

2. Destruction of the Central nerve System. It has about the size of a Golf -or Tennisball so its Hard to hit...he is moving, you are moving.....

3. Loose of large quantitis of blood. That means a Lot of holes at the right Place. Shootplacement is the key!

If you want caracter...a (I dont dare to say it) a 1911!?!?

SVI tactical!?!? Reliabilety???

Sig. 226 Elite? Has caracter!

For Defensive stuff I like Plastic frames...M&P9!?!?

Just my 0.02€

[FightFireJay]

...if you need more than six shots to stop a threat in your home 1 practice more and 2 MOVE!...

...Don't let anyone tell you there's only a 2 round difference between 9 and 40; it's 4 in small frame....

I think revolvers are fine firearms, but each gun has its limitations. Having only 6 shost to neutralize the threat may not be enough, and we can't always rely on being able to move and reload. Multiple bad guy scenarios could easily take twice the amount of rounds available in a revolver... Or it might take only 2 shots if you get lucky.

I apologize if it sounded like I was commenting on the magazine capacity of the Stock 3 guns... For MY pistol choices, there is only a 2 round difference between 9 and .40 (in Glock or M&P).