Custom Shop guns in production

[EricW]

"But, but what about genuine, official Glock '+2' basepads???".

OK, so what if I paint my basepads with hip tones from the Ralph Lauren collection, will IPSC approve their use?

If my +2 basepad falls in the woods, but no one is there to hear, will anybody hear me cuss because I can't find my basepad anymore?

If Glock made a plastic woodchuck, how much glass-filled nylon could it chuck before reloading?

What's the latest ruling on Hawaiian shirts? I need to see if my shirt's pattern is on the approved list before I stowaway on the jet on my way to Bali.

[Jim Norman]

Vince,

Can you provide a direct answer to Vlad? His question is the one that I have been trying to ask, but in more clear and specifif words.

You have provided a partial answer, I can't send the gun to a local to duplicate what Glock does, but can i A) send it to GLock and can I bypass Glock and send the gun to the SAME subcontractor that they use?

Please two simple questions. All it takes is two simple answers, Don't change it to Berretta or play other what ifs. Just answer the question, Please, Thank you.

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

Please two simple questions. All it takes is two simple answers, Don't change it to Berretta or play other what ifs. Just answer the question, Please, Thank you.

I cannot answer a question which has no answer. What you're suggesting is simply not possible. If and when Glock offer a chroming service, ask me again.

[Jim Norman]

OK, Vince, be obtuse.

Change Chrome to some other finish, the question is a valid question. If the OFM offers the service, any service / modification / Option on a current pistol, can you add that miodification to the same model pistol you already own? Assume that het base model is the same. We are not talking about sculpting the grip to match a new grio, that is a manufacturing change, Agreed, we are talking about different finishes, or other working modifications that are now offered, but may not have been offered or may have been out of the new shooters price range or knowledge base when he bought the pistol. Maybe it is a used gun, police trade in? and he wants to make it competitive. Understand that I am not talking substaintial changes tothe gun here, I am talking about things that are offered on the EXACT same gun now that may not have been offered at the time of purchase.

You may feel free to substitute a manufacturer such as the ABC Gun Making Company. The question is generic.

Say the company now offers a front slide seration to aid in racking the slide and your gun does not have them. Can you:

A) Have the company provide that service to you as an after purchase option?

Have the same exact work done at your local smith?

C) Change the slide for a new slide that has the work done by the OFM?

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

OK, Vince, be obtuse.

Definition: [adj] slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity;

[adj] lacking in insight or discernment;

[adj] of an angle; between 90 and 180 degrees

[adj] of a leaf shape; rounded at the apex

Synonyms: dense, dim, dull, dumb, purblind, simple, slow, stupid, undiscerning, unsubdivided

Source: hyperdictionary.com

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I have patiently tried to answer your questions but, once again, your underlying contempt for me and your desire to be argumentative eventually resurfaces, along with a personal insult. Since you only ever shoot within the USA, I suggest you refer your questions to Mr. John Amidon.

Original question asked and answered. This thread closed.

[Flexmoney]

Opened.

[GrumpyOne]

Wow! Something changed in 9 years? Is that a record?

[Flexmoney]

Wow! Something changed in 9 years? Is that a record?

Your underwear...that's a record.

[Jaxshooter]

The Sig X-5 Allround is an example of a "Custom Shop" gun that is approved for Production.

[GrumpyOne]

Wow! Something changed in 9 years? Is that a record?

Your underwear...that's a record.

I changed them at the same time you realized you weren't funny....oh wait, you still haven't realized that yet...keep trying though, one day maybe you'll figure it out.

[Flexmoney]

Wow! Something changed in 9 years? Is that a record?

Your underwear...that's a record.

I changed them at the same time you realized you weren't funny....oh wait, you still haven't realized that yet...keep trying though, one day maybe you'll figure it out.

I'll let ya know...so you can change that underwear.

[sperman]

I found this in the BOD announcements from 3/2009. Specifically, the FAQ document.

16) I am looking at buying a "custom shop" gun which is based on a model that is approved for USPSA Production Division, but has different features than the normal off-the-shelf model. Is it legal to use in competition?

ANSWER: It depends. In general, the custom shop can do any modifications which are also permitted for you to do. So, the custom shop can add texture in the permitted areas, can do internal work on trigger mechanisms, can fit an aftermarket barrel of the same length/caliber/contour, can install aftermarket sights, etc.

However, for use in the USPSA Production Division, modifications are constrained no matter who performs them. So, if a modification would make a gun illegal for use in Production Division, that modification is illegal even if it came from the manufacturer's custom shop. For example, the custom shop may not add or remove material to change the profile of the grip-frame, add or reshape a beavertail, remove or disable safety mechanisms, add an external magwell, mill the slide to achieve a different contour, etc. Modifications which are not specifically allowed in Appendix D4 or a published NROI ruling would result in a "new/unapproved model", illegal for use in USPSA Production Division, no matter whether those modifications are made by you, your gun-smith or the manufacturer's custom-shop.

Please note that there is a process by which a manufacturer can freely innovate features on guns intended for USPSA Production Division. When they have produced at least 2000 units in a new configuration, they may submit the new model to NROI for approval in USPSA Production Division. When the gun has been certified as compliant with the Production Division rules, the new "custom shop" model will be added to the list of "approved guns".

17) I have an approved Production Division gun, and the manufacturer now offers a cool mag-release button on their “custom shop” versions of that gun. Can I use that mag-release button, since it is "an OEM part"?

ANSWER: It depends. An external part which extends only the length of the magazine-release button is specifically allowed in section 21.6 of the 2009 interpretation, whether the part is OEM or aftermarket. If the part provides a larger surface area (a big head, a button, a paddle, etc) or is different than the original part in any dimension other than length, the part is only permitted if it is an OEM part available on an approved model of gun.

Note that an internal modification to a magazine-release mechanism which results in shifting the magazine-release laterally (i.e., making the part stick out further on one side of the gun) would be considered an "internal modification", and is allowed.

Also note that parts from "custom shop" guns are only considered "OEM parts" if the "custom shop" model is on the NROI list of approved guns. If NROI has not certified the "custom shop" gun for USPSA Production Division, using a custom-shop part may be an "external modification", resulting in a "new/unapproved model" which would be illegal for USPSA Production Division. Contact NROI for an official ruling before switching to the new part.

[GrumpyOne]

Wow! Something changed in 9 years? Is that a record?

Your underwear...that's a record.

I changed them at the same time you realized you weren't funny....oh wait, you still haven't realized that yet...keep trying though, one day maybe you'll figure it out.

I'll let ya know...so you can change that underwear.

Guess I'll be waiting a long, long time....I've heard that you were pretty slow to understand things...and the post above prooves it...

[diehli]

So if Glock or Sig or anyone else offers through their inhouse shop a one unit of a total race version of a gun it is legal (assuming it is legal in Production to begin with) but if Joe's gunsmith shop does the same thing it is not legal.

Um, no. This is why we have an approved gun list, whereby IPSC determines whether or not a particular make, model and configuration is suitable for approval. Unless we can somehow get magical powers to create an "IPSC IRS" and audit the books of gun manufacturers, relying on them to merely declare they have produced X number of guns is not considered to be a satisfactory solution.

This is why, for example, no gun is approved unless we can see an actual manufacturer's catalogue and/or price list showing that the gun is, in fact, in general production. If it is, and if it meets the Production Division criteria, it gets listed. Simple, really.

This is why IPSC has a gun list and seems as though why USPSA does, too.

[mpolans]

I found this in the BOD announcements from 3/2009. Specifically, the FAQ document.

16) I am looking at buying a "custom shop" gun which is based on a model that is approved for USPSA Production Division, but has different features than the normal off-the-shelf model. Is it legal to use in competition?

ANSWER: It depends. In general, the custom shop can do any modifications which are also permitted for you to do. So, the custom shop can add texture in the permitted areas, can do internal work on trigger mechanisms, can fit an aftermarket barrel of the same length/caliber/contour, can install aftermarket sights, etc.

However, for use in the USPSA Production Division, modifications are constrained no matter who performs them. So, if a modification would make a gun illegal for use in Production Division, that modification is illegal even if it came from the manufacturer's custom shop. For example, the custom shop may not add or remove material to change the profile of the grip-frame, add or reshape a beavertail, remove or disable safety mechanisms, add an external magwell, mill the slide to achieve a different contour, etc. Modifications which are not specifically allowed in Appendix D4 or a published NROI ruling would result in a "new/unapproved model", illegal for use in USPSA Production Division, no matter whether those modifications are made by you, your gun-smith or the manufacturer's custom-shop.

Please note that there is a process by which a manufacturer can freely innovate features on guns intended for USPSA Production Division. When they have produced at least 2000 units in a new configuration, they may submit the new model to NROI for approval in USPSA Production Division. When the gun has been certified as compliant with the Production Division rules, the new "custom shop" model will be added to the list of "approved guns".

17) I have an approved Production Division gun, and the manufacturer now offers a cool mag-release button on their “custom shop” versions of that gun. Can I use that mag-release button, since it is "an OEM part"?

ANSWER: It depends. An external part which extends only the length of the magazine-release button is specifically allowed in section 21.6 of the 2009 interpretation, whether the part is OEM or aftermarket. If the part provides a larger surface area (a big head, a button, a paddle, etc) or is different than the original part in any dimension other than length, the part is only permitted if it is an OEM part available on an approved model of gun.

Note that an internal modification to a magazine-release mechanism which results in shifting the magazine-release laterally (i.e., making the part stick out further on one side of the gun) would be considered an "internal modification", and is allowed.

Also note that parts from "custom shop" guns are only considered "OEM parts" if the "custom shop" model is on the NROI list of approved guns. If NROI has not certified the "custom shop" gun for USPSA Production Division, using a custom-shop part may be an "external modification", resulting in a "new/unapproved model" which would be illegal for USPSA Production Division. Contact NROI for an official ruling before switching to the new part.

This has definitely changed. Though I think IPSC gets a little too picky about refinishing guns, I think they made a much better call than USPSA/NROI on not allowing milling slides for signs and not allowing custom shop guns and modifications in Production Division.