If target sticks don't exist....

[PKT1106]

REF can be caused by the shooter (as long as it is not intentional).

Rules don't seem to indicate anything about intention. I can intend to get AA on every target, if I don't, do I get a reshoot?Listen, I am not trying to be disrespectful, I know you guys have way more experience than I do at this sport. I am just trying to provide a good arguement about my point of view. I have hit target stick that have broke the target before. I never took a reshoot because I shot it, the equipment didn't fail.

But it doesn't matter what caused the REF. There is nothing in the rules about what CAUSES a REF, it only says WHAT a REF is.The only recourse we have in the rule book is for a mandatory reshoot.

According to 4.5.1, competitors are not allowed to interfere with sticks or activators. Shooting a stick or activator(cable) is interfering.

[Solvability]

I could stand there and blast a stick to get a reshoot - no I don't think so.

[Flexmoney]

REF can be caused by the shooter (as long as it is not intentional).

Rules don't seem to indicate anything about intention. I can intend to get AA on every target, if I don't, do I get a reshoot?

Well, yeah...they do. If a shooter intentionally shots up a prop to get a reshoot, I will throw them out of the match. There is a rule for that (though I never have seen anybody come close...I thought I should include that disclaimer to head off any nit-picking).

[PKT1106]

REF can be caused by the shooter (as long as it is not intentional).

Rules don't seem to indicate anything about intention. I can intend to get AA on every target, if I don't, do I get a reshoot?

Well, yeah...they do. If a shooter intentionally shots up a prop to get a reshoot, I will throw them out of the match. There is a rule for that (though I never have seen anybody come close...I thought I should include that disclaimer to head off any nit-picking).

Are you talking about 10.6 - Unsportsmanlike Conduct?

[Flexmoney]

According to 4.5.1, competitors are not allowed to interfere with sticks or activators. Shooting a stick or activator(cable) is interfering.

Is not.

Seriously, if you want to apply something from that section, read 4.5.2:

4.5.2 The competitor may request that Match Officials take corrective actions to ensure consistency in respect of the range surface, the presentation of targets and/or any other matter. The Range Master will have final authority concerning all such requests.

[PKT1106]

According to 4.5.1, competitors are not allowed to interfere with sticks or activators. Shooting a stick or activator(cable) is interfering.

Is not. Seriously, if you want to apply something from that section, read 4.5.2:4.5.2 The competitor may request that Match Officials take corrective actions to ensure consistency in respect of the range surface, the presentation of targets and/or any other matter. The Range Master will have final authority concerning all such requests.

Consistency of targets can only be ensured before each COF. If a shooter shoots a stick, where is their justification that the targets were not presented consistantly?.

[Flexmoney]

Consistency of targets can only be ensured before each COF.

Um...no.

I get you point of view. But, things can happen during the course of fire that are unintended. They can change the presentation of the cof in a way that make the cof inconsistent from shooter to shooter (for the good or the bad of the shooter).

We need a consistent presentation of the cof from shooter to shooter, since that is what we measure the score on. And, it isn't just the presentation that happens before the beep...it is throughout the cof.

That is why we build them to be "bullet proof"...though they sometimes aren't.

[PKT1106]

REF can be caused by the shooter (as long as it is not intentional).

Rules don't seem to indicate anything about intention. I can intend to get AA on every target, if I don't, do I get a reshoot?Listen, I am not trying to be disrespectful, I know you guys have way more experience than I do at this sport. I am just trying to provide a good arguement about my point of view. I have hit target stick that have broke the target before. I never took a reshoot because I shot it, the equipment didn't fail.

But it doesn't matter what caused the REF. There is nothing in the rules about what CAUSES a REF, it only says WHAT a REF is.The only recourse we have in the rule book is for a mandatory reshoot.

Consistency of targets can only be ensured before each COF.

Um...no.I get you point of view. But, things can happen during the course of fire that are unintended. They can change the presentation of the cof in a way that make the cof inconsistent from shooter to shooter (for the good or the bad of the shooter). We need a consistent presentation of the cof from shooter to shooter, since that is what we measure the score on. And, it isn't just the presentation that happens before the beep...it is throughout the cof.That is why we build them to be "bullet proof"...though they sometimes aren't.

And I get what you are saying. What I am saying is that if a shooter changes the target presentation by destroying a stick during their COF, that is the shooters fault, not the equipment failing. Once their COF has ended, the target can be reset to the original configuration for the next shooter.

If a popper falls from wind or a staple breaks and a target sags BEFORE the shooter reaches them, then I agree there is a REF and a reshoot is granted. If the shooter engages a target and breaks a stick, the reason the target is inconsistent is because the shooter made it that way. I don't see how they get a reshoot for, for lack of a better phrase, shooting poorly to hit a stick or cable.

[Poppa Bear]

I think Nik has it right. Fully available target and you hit the stick and cause it to lean a bit? Still available, no reshoot, repair for next shooter. Hit the stick and cause the target to fall over completely, or just enough to obscure a portion of it? Not available, reshoot/repair. Obscured target that now becomes more available? Reshoot/repair.

It really falls into the RO's judgement. Did the targets availability change due to the stick being damaged? Did it happen in a timely manner? Ie., The shooter hits the stick and the target stays in place. A gust hits the target and the stick now snaps and it leans over or even falls over completely. The shooter at this point is 20' downrange of the target in question. Reshoot because the target broke behind them?

Nothing in the rules about "availability" of the target.

Rule simply states "displacement of paper target".

Lee

But where does displacement end? You shoot in the morning where the wind is gentle and stable out of the East. Targets are parallel to the breeze so they do not move at all. Later squads shoot with the wind gusting out of the North and the targets are rocking back and forth, even twisting in the wind 3,4,5". Do we toss the stage because the stage is not equitable now with the targets being displaced like that? This is definitely more displacement than one side dropping an inch when the stick gets shot.

I have seen stick get hit and drop the entire target. I have seen sticks get hit and cause the one side to settle 1/2" as the upper stick drops on top of the lower stick. Is that drop enough to require a reshoot? I have seen sticks get hit and while the stick was broken it did not drop at all because enough remained of the stick to hold the elevation the same. Reshoot because the stick is now broken?

I leave this to the discretion of the RO. If the shooter does not like it they can appeal to the CRO or RM.

[Flexmoney]

... that is the shooters fault, not the equipment failing.

...the target is inconsistent is because the shooter made it that way.

I don't see how they get a reshoot...

How many time do you want to ride this merry-go-round?

Even if it is the shooter's fault...it is still not the same course of fire. Reshoot.

[sharps4070ss]

I think Nik has it right. Fully available target and you hit the stick and cause it to lean a bit? Still available, no reshoot, repair for next shooter. Hit the stick and cause the target to fall over completely, or just enough to obscure a portion of it? Not available, reshoot/repair. Obscured target that now becomes more available? Reshoot/repair.

It really falls into the RO's judgement. Did the targets availability change due to the stick being damaged? Did it happen in a timely manner? Ie., The shooter hits the stick and the target stays in place. A gust hits the target and the stick now snaps and it leans over or even falls over completely. The shooter at this point is 20' downrange of the target in question. Reshoot because the target broke behind them?

Nothing in the rules about "availability" of the target.

Rule simply states "displacement of paper target".

Lee

But where does displacement end? You shoot in the morning where the wind is gentle and stable out of the East. Targets are parallel to the breeze so they do not move at all. Later squads shoot with the wind gusting out of the North and the targets are rocking back and forth, even twisting in the wind 3,4,5". Do we toss the stage because the stage is not equitable now with the targets being displaced like that? This is definitely more displacement than one side dropping an inch when the stick gets shot.

I have seen stick get hit and drop the entire target. I have seen sticks get hit and cause the one side to settle 1/2" as the upper stick drops on top of the lower stick. Is that drop enough to require a reshoot? I have seen sticks get hit and while the stick was broken it did not drop at all because enough remained of the stick to hold the elevation the same. Reshoot because the stick is now broken?

I leave this to the discretion of the RO. If the shooter does not like it they can appeal to the CRO or RM.

I assume that since you are now silent on the "availability" of a target you are conceding that point?

I will agree with you that the amount of "displacement" is up to the RO, RM, & MD to decide.

In your above situation, the RO, RM, MD had better be making all efforts to stabilize the flopping targets before anybody in the "afternoon" group shoots them, otherwise the stage should be thrown out.

Personally, I would never shoot another match run by a group that would allow such a situation to happen (wildly flapping targets creating an unequal challenge to different shooters, and not throwing the stage out)

And I consider 3,4,5" movement of targets to be "wildly flapping"

[PKT1106]

How many time do you want to ride this merry-go-round?

Until you can convince me that the shooter breaking a piece of range equipment during their COF constitues a reshoot.

Even if it is the shooter's fault...it is still not the same course of fire. Reshoot.

It was the same COF when the shooter started the COF, everything was presented the same when the shooter engaged, the shooter broke the stick/cable with poor shooting, why should that get rewarded with a reshoot?

[CHA-LEE]

If the location of the target is drastically altered (Hanging down to one side) by the target stick being shot off or breaking that is considered a range equipment failure. The shooter should be stopped and issued a reshoot due to REF.

Edited October 8, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[Poppa Bear]

I assume that since you are now silent on the "availability" of a target you are conceding that point?

I will agree with you that the amount of "displacement" is up to the RO, RM, & MD to decide.

In your above situation, the RO, RM, MD had better be making all efforts to stabilize the flopping targets before anybody in the "afternoon" group shoots them, otherwise the stage should be thrown out.

Personally, I would never shoot another match run by a group that would allow such a situation to happen (wildly flapping targets creating an unequal challenge to different shooters, and not throwing the stage out)

And I consider 3,4,5" movement of targets to be "wildly flapping"

I never really argued the availability part of it. The displacement is what will determine if it is available or not which as we do agree on is up to the RO, CRO,RM to decide.

My point with the flapping targets is that weather happens. Many major matches would be all together thrown out if conditions had to be the same for each squad/day of shooting. You bag the targets due to moisture and you have an even bigger sail. You do your best to keep things as solid as possible and as fair as possible but it is up to the officials to determine just how much displacement due to weather or damage to props/sticks is allowable before things have to be corrected.

To me the deciding factor is did the damage affect the shooters ability to shoot the stage. If yes then a reshoot. If not then the run stands and we correct before the next shooter starts.

[PKT1106]

If the location of the target is drastically altered (Hanging down to one side) by the target stick being shot off or breaking that is considered a range equipment failure. The shooter should be stopped and issued a reshoot due to REF.

But the range equipment didn't fail, the shooter shot it and broke it.

[mhop]

If the location of the target is drastically altered (Hanging down to one side) by the target stick being shot off or breaking that is considered a range equipment failure. The shooter should be stopped and issued a reshoot due to REF.

But the range equipment didn't fail, the shooter shot it and broke it.

is the target stick a part of a competitor's equipment?

[CHA-LEE]

If the location of the target is drastically altered (Hanging down to one side) by the target stick being shot off or breaking that is considered a range equipment failure. The shooter should be stopped and issued a reshoot due to REF.

But the range equipment didn't fail, the shooter shot it and broke it.

The "Cause" of the range failure does not matter. This is no different than a shooter accidentally shooting through the wire of an activator, shooting the stand of a steel target causing it to shift or fall, or the splatter of a round from one target causing another target to fall or activate.

The fact of the matter is that when EVERY shooter started the and completed the COF when the COF was in the same configuration. If the COF changes in the middle of the stage run, such as the target stick getting shot out and the target flops over, then it is a DIFFERENT configuration and thus not an equitable shooting challenge when compared to all of the other shooters.

Edited October 8, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[PKT1106]

is the target stick a part of a competitor's equipment?

I don't know what you're getting at.

The "Cause" of the range failure does not matter. This is no different than a shooter accidentally shooting through the wire of an activator, shooting the stand of a steel target causing it to shift or fall, or the splatter of a round from one target causing another target to fall or activate.

Yes it does. If the shooter causes the failure, I don't think they should be entitled to a reshoot.

The fact of the matter is that when EVERY shooter started the and completed the COF when the COF was in the same configuration. If the COF changes in the middle of the stage run, such as the target stick getting shot out and the target flops over, then it is a DIFFERENT configuration and thus not an equitable shooting challenge when compared to all of the other shooters.

The rule says it must be PRESENTED the same, not FINISH in the same configuration at the end of the COF.

[mhop]

is the target stick a part of a competitor's equipment?

I don't know what you're getting at.

is the target stick a piece of range equipment or competitor equipment?

[CHA-LEE]

PKT1106> I hate to point out the obvious fact that what you "Think" the ruling should be does not match what the rules within the rule book supports. Within this thread there have been numerous NROI certified RO's and CRO's provide the valid answer to this ruling question along with detailed explanations. Even if you "Think" that these answers are not right, it does not matter what you "Think". The rules are the rules. I would suggest that you take an RO course and read the rule book from front to back so you can based your rulings on factual rules, not what you "Think" is the answer or should be.

No one will be able to debate rules with people who choose to not use the rules but instead base their argument on what they think the rules should be.

[CHA-LEE]

is the target stick a part of a competitor's equipment?

I don't know what you're getting at.

The "Cause" of the range failure does not matter. This is no different than a shooter accidentally shooting through the wire of an activator, shooting the stand of a steel target causing it to shift or fall, or the splatter of a round from one target causing another target to fall or activate.

Yes it does. If the shooter causes the failure, I don't think they should be entitled to a reshoot.

The fact of the matter is that when EVERY shooter started the and completed the COF when the COF was in the same configuration. If the COF changes in the middle of the stage run, such as the target stick getting shot out and the target flops over, then it is a DIFFERENT configuration and thus not an equitable shooting challenge when compared to all of the other shooters.

The rule says it must be PRESENTED the same, not FINISH in the same configuration at the end of the COF.

(1) There are no provisions within the rule book that give what you think the rules should be any weight over what the rules actually are. The rules are the rules as written. The rules are not whatever you think they should be.

(2) The rule does state that it must be PRESENTED the same. This is not time limited or condition limited. You are thinking of the presentation of targets or COF as a "Only happens once" scenario. If I turn to a target it is presented to me, if I turn away then turn back to it, it is presented to me again. Any target within a COF can be presented over and over again from now until infinity. The rule clearly states that the COF must be presented the same for everyone. If I see the target the first time and it is presented correctly then the target stick gets shot out and the target flops over, then its no longer presented correctly. It does not matter if this change in target presentation happens before, during, or after the target is engaged during the COF or who/what caused it to become presented differently.

Edited October 8, 2012 by CHA-LEE

[PKT1106]

PKT1106> I hate to point out the obvious fact that what you "Think" the ruling should be does not match what the rules within the rule book supports. Within this thread there have been numerous NROI certified RO's and CRO's provide the valid answer to this ruling question along with detailed explanations. Even if you "Think" that these answers are not right, it does not matter what you "Think". The rules are the rules. I would suggest that you take an RO course and read the rule book from front to back so you can based your rulings on factual rules, not what you "Think" is the answer or should be.No one will be able to debate rules with people who choose to not use the rules but instead base their argument on what they think the rules should be.

So, we're not allowed to question it?

And section 4.6 about REFs is so vague as to include failures that are non-shooter and shooter induced, then I think we need to review this. This is basically saying if you shoot poorly enough to break a stick or cut a cable, you get a reshoot, which I think is wrong.

[CHA-LEE]

PKT1106> I hate to point out the obvious fact that what you "Think" the ruling should be does not match what the rules within the rule book supports. Within this thread there have been numerous NROI certified RO's and CRO's provide the valid answer to this ruling question along with detailed explanations. Even if you "Think" that these answers are not right, it does not matter what you "Think". The rules are the rules. I would suggest that you take an RO course and read the rule book from front to back so you can based your rulings on factual rules, not what you "Think" is the answer or should be.No one will be able to debate rules with people who choose to not use the rules but instead base their argument on what they think the rules should be.

So, we're not allowed to question it?

And section 4.6 about REFs is so vague as to include failures that are non-shooter and shooter induced, then I think we need to review this. This is basically saying if you shoot poorly enough to break a stick or cut a cable, you get a reshoot, which I think is wrong.

Obviously you can and have questioned the ruling and have been given the answer per what is defined in the rule book. Just because you don't like the answer provided does not make the answer any less valid.

[sharps4070ss]

I never really argued the availability part of it. The displacement is what will determine if it is available or not which as we do agree on is up to the RO, CRO,RM to decide.

My point with the flapping targets is that weather happens. Many major matches would be all together thrown out if conditions had to be the same for each squad/day of shooting. You bag the targets due to moisture and you have an even bigger sail. You do your best to keep things as solid as possible and as fair as possible but it is up to the officials to determine just how much displacement due to weather or damage to props/sticks is allowable before things have to be corrected.

To me the deciding factor is did the damage affect the shooters ability to shoot the stage. If yes then a reshoot. If not then the run stands and we correct before the next shooter starts.

There it is again..."available"

No such requirement in the rule book.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors.

I think we can agree that some movement is unavoidable, and how much that is allowed can be debated.

In my opinion, in THIS particular case, the presentation of the target has changed to an unacceptable degree.

I would stop the competitor immediately, "unload and show clear".

Mandatory re-shoot.

Edited October 8, 2012 by sharps4070ss

[sharps4070ss]

And section 4.6 about REFs is so vague as to include failures that are non-shooter and shooter induced, then I think we need to review this. This is basically saying if you shoot poorly enough to break a stick or cut a cable, you get a reshoot, which I think is wrong.

Heck, I'm a "B" class shooter and I've shot a cable.

It was a caused by a combination of my height (6'3") and poor stage design.

Why should I be penalized for that?

For the record, it was a "shoot through" on a close target that hit a downrange activator cable.

Edited October 8, 2012 by sharps4070ss