If target sticks don't exist....

[lef-t]

So a shooter during a CoF shoots a target stick and snaps it in two. The target, now held up by one stick, is still available but slightly slanted. The shooter engages the target and completes the CoF.

The rules:

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the

failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of

mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of

props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

4.6.2 A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range

equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to

his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of

fire after corrective actions have been taken.

Should range equipment failure be called and a mandatory reshoot be given? Because the target was still available and the competitor shot it (completing the CoF), should it be scored as shot and just replace the stick for the next shooter, or perhaps give the shooter the option of a reshoot?

Pic of actual instance (sorry, low quality).

Edited October 8, 2012 by lef-t

[sharps4070ss]

I would call if REF and re-shoot.

The course of fire is not the same for all competitors.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the

failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of

mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of

props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

Lee

Edited October 8, 2012 by sharps4070ss

[lef-t]

I would call if REF and re-shoot.

The course of fire is not the same for all competitors.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the

failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of

mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of

props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

Lee

Haha, I was just re-reading the section and added that to my post the same time you posted. Although the target was "displaced" during the CoF, the competitor was still able to complete it. 4.6.2 makes it seem (contrary to popular belief) that not all REF requires a reshoot, it's only if the competitor cannot complete the CoF due to REF.

The more I think about it, I think it should be scored as shot.

[steel1212]

Not the same course of fire if the target flops over due to a shot stick. Reshoot

[Sarge]

Reshoot unless the shooter was finished with the target and went on to complete the COF. If he shoots it on the first shot and it presents the target differently for another shot(or two) the it is a Reshoot. Look at it like this. The target is partially hidden and shooting a leg lets it fall out from behind cover for a better follow up(or two). I say (or two) because he may have had a delta then hit the stick and was able to make it up with two nice fat alphas.

And there is only one case that allows a reshoot be "offered". It ain't this one.

[Caffeinated]

Not the same course of fire if the target flops over due to a shot stick. Reshoot

I agree with this.

[Nik Habicht]

Assuming that the target wasn't "less available" no reshoot in this instance....

Now, if the shooter had to lean around the left side of a wall to get at the target, then my opinion would change. But if it's wide open, no reshoot....

[PKT1106]

If the shooter shot the stick and broke it, I don't think they get a reshoot. It's not a range equipment failure its a "shooter shot it" instance. Range equipment failure, to me, implies the equipment failed with no involvement from personnel or shooters.

The displacement of paper targets, to me, is if the wind blows a target off, or staples come loose during the COF. The shooter shooting the stick is on the shooter, not the equipment. Replace for the next shooter and score the COF as shot.

[sperman]

So if a shooter hits the cable that activates a swinger or a clamshell, that isn't REF?

[remoandiris]

I agree with Nik on this. If the target is STILL fully available, no reshoot. When all else fails, call the RM.

[PKT1106]

So if a shooter hits the cable that activates a swinger or a clamshell, that isn't REF?

I don't think so. The range equipment did not fail. The shooter shot the cable. The cable is not supposed to withstand the force of the bullet, merely connect the steel to the swinger/clamshell. If the shooter hits that cable and breaks it, the cable didn't fail in its purpose, the shooter broke it with their shot.

If a shooter hits a plastic barrel and puts a hole through it, is that REF? No, because the barrel is merely there to simulate hard cover, not stop bullets. The cable is there to connect the steel to the swinger/clamshell, not to stand up to bullets.

[sperman]

So if a shooter hits the cable that activates a swinger or a clamshell, that isn't REF?

I don't think so. The range equipment did not fail. The shooter shot the cable. The cable is not supposed to withstand the force of the bullet, merely connect the steel to the swinger/clamshell. If the shooter hits that cable and breaks it, the cable didn't fail in its purpose, the shooter broke it with their shot.

If a shooter hits a plastic barrel and puts a hole through it, is that REF? No, because the barrel is merely there to simulate hard cover, not stop bullets. The cable is there to connect the steel to the swinger/clamshell, not to stand up to bullets.

Maybe you could ask your instructor, when you take the RO class.

[Flexmoney]

That target fell over at a noticeable and apparent angle. It is displaced ('cause it ain't in DAT'place no more)

Reshoot.

[Flexmoney]

If the shooter shot the stick and broke it, I don't think they get a reshoot. It's not a range equipment failure its a "shooter shot it" instance. Range equipment failure, to me, implies the equipment failed with no involvement from personnel or shooters.

Nah. Not how we call that. REF can be caused by the shooter (as long as it is not intentional).

[Flexmoney]

...or perhaps give the shooter the option of a reshoot?

No option to the shooter. The RO needs to make the call.

[Mark K]

So if a shooter hits the cable that activates a swinger or a clamshell, that isn't REF?

I don't think so. The range equipment did not fail. The shooter shot the cable. The cable is not supposed to withstand the force of the bullet, merely connect the steel to the swinger/clamshell. If the shooter hits that cable and breaks it, the cable didn't fail in its purpose, the shooter broke it with their shot.

If a shooter hits a plastic barrel and puts a hole through it, is that REF? No, because the barrel is merely there to simulate hard cover, not stop bullets. The cable is there to connect the steel to the swinger/clamshell, not to stand up to bullets.

This is no different than a shooter hitting a plate stand that causes the plate to fall - REF. Still the shooter's action caused it, but he did not hit the target and should not benefit or suffer from the situation.

Mark K

[Tim/GA]

I keep seeing things like "I would give the shooter the option of a reshoot, etc. Correct me if I am wrong but there is only one reshoot that is "optional" and that is interference by the RO. And in that case the shooter must choose prior to seeing the score/targets or time. Example, a shooter suddenly changes direction and the RO barely gets out of the way but either barely touches the shooter or may have impeded the shooter's movement.

When it comes to REF there is only the option of the shooter MUST reshoot. We had a case where a shooter did not want to reshoot after a plate fell from a hit on the stand and said to just give him the miss. I was called as the MD/RM and had to tell the shooter it was either a 0 for the stage or a reshoot- only options.

In the case of the target stick it would be a harder call as to movement of the target but it is still up to the RO to either require the reshoot or not. "What do you want to do" to the shooter is not an option. RO, make the call and then it can go up the chain if needed.

[Poppa Bear]

I think Nik has it right. Fully available target and you hit the stick and cause it to lean a bit? Still available, no reshoot, repair for next shooter. Hit the stick and cause the target to fall over completely, or just enough to obscure a portion of it? Not available, reshoot/repair. Obscured target that now becomes more available? Reshoot/repair.

It really falls into the RO's judgement. Did the targets availability change due to the stick being damaged? Did it happen in a timely manner? Ie., The shooter hits the stick and the target stays in place. A gust hits the target and the stick now snaps and it leans over or even falls over completely. The shooter at this point is 20' downrange of the target in question. Reshoot because the target broke behind them?

[steel1212]

That target fell over at a noticeable and apparent angle. It is displaced ('cause it ain't in DAT'place no more)

Reshoot.

Yeah if the target goes from being straight up to being at a angle its no longer the same target. How can you not give a reshoot?

[Sarge]

So if a shooter hits the cable that activates a swinger or a clamshell, that isn't REF?

I don't think so. The range equipment did not fail. The shooter shot the cable. The cable is not supposed to withstand the force of the bullet, merely connect the steel to the swinger/clamshell. If the shooter hits that cable and breaks it, the cable didn't fail in its purpose, the shooter broke it with their shot.

If a shooter hits a plastic barrel and puts a hole through it, is that REF? No, because the barrel is merely there to simulate hard cover, not stop bullets. The cable is there to connect the steel to the swinger/clamshell, not to stand up to bullets.

You really need to get your rule book out. REF comes in many shapes and sizes. Shooting a cable is REF. Even if it weren't it's going to cause an REF when whatever is connected to that cable fails to work. Shooter shoots a paper target and the bullet hits a popper behind it, Guess what? REF

And what is the difference between shooting a stick off and having a target tilt or flop around and having staples come loose and cause the same thing? It's all REF.

[PKT1106]

Here is the part that I am refering to: "Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors."

At the beginning of the COF, if all the range equipment is working properly, I don't understand how you can say the range equipment failed if the shooter shoots it. The targets were presented fairly and equitably to the shooter before the COF and the shooters actions caused the REF (ie: shooting the target stick or steel cable). The shooter caused the "failure", not the equipment itself.

4.6.2 ...... must be required to reshoot the course of

fire after corrective actions have been taken.

How do you correct the shooter hitting the sticks or the cable You gonna take them aside and do a little sight picture training? Its on them to hit the targets/steel. What if the shooter hits a stick every reshoot or hits the cable every reshoot? Does the equipment fail? No, the shooter keeps hitting them.

Maybe you could ask your instructor, when you take the RO class.

I feel like that was an insult.

[PKT1106]

Shooter shoots a paper target and the bullet hits a popper behind it, Guess what? REF

I agree with that because the targets were set that way BEFORE the COF and should have been corrected.

And what is the difference between shooting a stick off and having a target tilt or flop around and having staples come loose and cause the same thing? It's all REF.

The difference is what caused the "failure" not having a good connection with the staples before the COF is different than the shooter shooting the stick during the COF.

[PKT1106]

REF can be caused by the shooter (as long as it is not intentional).

Rules don't seem to indicate anything about intention. I can intend to get AA on every target, if I don't, do I get a reshoot?

Listen, I am not trying to be disrespectful, I know you guys have way more experience than I do at this sport. I am just trying to provide a good arguement about my point of view. I have hit target stick that have broke the target before. I never took a reshoot because I shot it, the equipment didn't fail.

[sharps4070ss]

I think Nik has it right. Fully available target and you hit the stick and cause it to lean a bit? Still available, no reshoot, repair for next shooter. Hit the stick and cause the target to fall over completely, or just enough to obscure a portion of it? Not available, reshoot/repair. Obscured target that now becomes more available? Reshoot/repair.

It really falls into the RO's judgement. Did the targets availability change due to the stick being damaged? Did it happen in a timely manner? Ie., The shooter hits the stick and the target stays in place. A gust hits the target and the stick now snaps and it leans over or even falls over completely. The shooter at this point is 20' downrange of the target in question. Reshoot because the target broke behind them?

Nothing in the rules about "availability" of the target.

Rule simply states "displacement of paper target".

Lee

[sharps4070ss]

REF can be caused by the shooter (as long as it is not intentional).

Rules don't seem to indicate anything about intention. I can intend to get AA on every target, if I don't, do I get a reshoot?

Listen, I am not trying to be disrespectful, I know you guys have way more experience than I do at this sport. I am just trying to provide a good arguement about my point of view. I have hit target stick that have broke the target before. I never took a reshoot because I shot it, the equipment didn't fail.

But it doesn't matter what caused the REF. There is nothing in the rules about what CAUSES a REF, it only says WHAT a REF is.

The only recourse we have in the rule book is for a mandatory reshoot.

Edited October 8, 2012 by sharps4070ss