Torogi Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Im using the lightest main spring from CGW with ext FP. Lowering a hammer with light main spring is easier compared to a heavier main spring. If i were to swap main spring, id consciously put more thumb pressure on the hammer. Lowering the hammer is where i put most attention during make ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 also after pulling back on the hammer so it doesn't jump.... rotate your hand with the hammer as you lower it. don't let it spin as it goes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Im using the lightest main spring from CGW with ext FP. Lowering a hammer with light main spring is easier compared to a heavier main spring. If i were to swap main spring, id consciously put more thumb pressure on the hammer. Lowering the hammer is where i put most attention during make ready. Yeah that's exactly what my problem today was - I wasn't ready for that harder hammer fall from having put in the heavier spring. I'd decocked this gun 1,000's of times before today, but today was the first with the heavier hammer spring. Just practicing it here at the house I can tell it's riskier with the heavier spring even when I'm ready for it...I don't know that I'll be successful in decocking 1,000 times with the heavier spring. I emailed the DNROI to see if it's possible that, since a CZ with a mechanical decocker is allowed to be holstered at half cock, if a CZ without a mechanical decocker can be holstered in that way as well. And to be clear, when we're talking half cock on these CZ's, the hammer is nowhere near halfway from being fully decocked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind bat Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Glad to hear the four rules prevailed and everyone was safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 i don't agree with letting the hammer move on its own under any condition... but regardless, it'd be awesome if they'd let us start from half cock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 if they did, i'd print out that ruling and have it in my range bag just like the mag in front pocket ruling for Pro/SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 i don't agree with letting the hammer move on its own under any condition... but regardless, it'd be awesome if they'd let us start from half cock. How would the "hammer move on its own" starting from the position we're calling "half-cock?" Other option I came up with for dropping that hammer is putting something (like an allen wrench) through the hammer and easing it down with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 i might be getting confused following two identical threads. someone said to stick their thumb in front of the hammer and using the thumb as the cushion and dry fire the hammer onto their thumb, then remove their thumb to let it fall the small remainderr of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) i might be getting confused following two identical threads. someone said to stick their thumb in front of the hammer and using the thumb as the cushion and dry fire the hammer onto their thumb, then remove their thumb to let it fall the small remainderr of the way. Yeah the guy over on czfirearms.us said the only safe way to let the hammer down is to use your thumb and roll it out of the way as the hammer falls. I played with that - I could see it working. Reality is, there's no fool proof way. Sliding a piece of metal through the hammer and easing it down using that seems to me to be the most fool proof. I may do it. I thought you were saying that dropping the hammer to 'half' cock is somehow allowing the hammer to move on its own... Edited September 10, 2012 by cpa5oh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningsquirrels Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Reality is, there's no fool proof way. Sure there is... Use a Glock! :roflol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) Easy method, to me, is the "front-back pinch" approach. I've seen a lot of people pinch the sides of the hammer using thumb/index-finger. I pull the hammer back by using my support-hand's index-finger in front of the hammer -- between the hammer face and the firing pin -- and my thumb behind the hammer; then, drop the hammer while having the index-finger as a "cushion" and slowly roll the finger up-to-top and out. Of course, now, after feeling pretty comfortable with my Shadows, I sometimes use the Matt Mink method -- using strong-hand's thumb to pull back and drop the hammer. I do use the rear-sight to "brace" the tip of my thumb as the hammer gets closer to the pin. i might be getting confused following two identical threads. someone said to stick their thumb in front of the hammer and using the thumb as the cushion and dry fire the hammer onto their thumb, then remove their thumb to let it fall the small remainderr of the way. Yeah the guy over on czfirearms.us said the only safe way to let the hammer down is to use your thumb and roll it out of the way as the hammer falls. I played with that - I could see it working. Reality is, there's no fool proof way. Sliding a piece of metal through the hammer and easing it down using that seems to me to be the most fool proof. I may do it. I thought you were saying that dropping the hammer to 'half' cock is somehow allowing the hammer to move on its own... Edited September 10, 2012 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 That probably will work fine (pinching front and back)...I just am not real comfortable (after this DQ) doing anything that lets the hammer drop to it's fully decocked position without having a firm hold on it. Here's what I plan to do going forward: - wear a wristband on my right (strong) hand and put an allen wrench in there that is strong enough to not bend or anything but small enough to fit through the skeletonized hammer when the hammer is in the fully decocked position - at the make ready command, rack the slide, left hand grabs the allen wrench out of the wrist band, slide allen wrench through the hammer, use the index and middle fingers of my left hand to 'hook' the allen wrench on both sides of the hammer, pull back slightly on the hammer and release trigger, then using the allen wrench and the 'hook' fingers ease the hammer down - experimenting with that last night, I was able to have a finger in between the hammer and firing pin until the hammer is 3/4 of the way down...I think I'll already have a firm hold on it using the allen wrench/finger hooks, but I might as well take the extra precaution of leaving a finger in there as long as possible - my left hand will be in constant contact with the right hand so that it is braced to where the lowering of the hammer is just an uncurling of the hook fingers I'll shoot a video of it if I get a chance tonight to run it by you guys... The above might take an extra 5 seconds, but I'd love to have lost 5 seconds of my life yesterday over being DQ'ed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 I emailed/asked the DNROI about half cock with a CZ that doesn't have a mechanical decocker - asked if, since it's okay to have the decocker models at half cock (because that's considered "safe,") it is possible to allow the non-decocker CZ's to start at that same position...told him that it would pretty much eliminate the possibility of an accidental discharge. The reply I got was "I will bring this before the BOD to see if the exception could include handguns without a decocker, it will probably take a ruling or rule change, I will keep you posted." Might be good if anyone else who'd like to see CZ shooters able to start at the 'half' cock position to drop an email in to the DNROI as well...you can email him at dnroi@uspsa.org. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Dan- if you start at the half-cock position, does it still require the same trigger pull force to fire the first shot as if it were completely de-cocked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Trigger pull force seems the same to me...might a few millimeters of pull shaved off. The "half cocked" position isn't anywhere near halfway cocked...more like 1/8th cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I think you would have a better chance of getting a ruling that half-cocked is OK if the force required for the first shot is the same for each position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 based upon that... and the CZ is selective action... i guess a CZ decocker can never be reholstered without manual decocking. :shrug: Don't put your finger in the trigger guard to lower the hammer if the gun has a decocker. See 10.5.9: 10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer. So, decocking lever -- use it, leave the hammer where the lever puts it. No Decocking lever -- avail yourself of the exception provided in 10.5.9, and decock all the way down, as specified under DA Auto in the rules cited above. Selective Auto language really refers to using somethig like a CZ in Limited -- where it's shooters choice to start cocked and locked, or in hammer down DA mode.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Is it ok to lower to the "half cock position"? No. It must be all the way down. Otherwise, it would not be an appropriate ready condition and could be a DQ for holstering an unsafe gun. Rule 8.1.2.3 describes selective action's ready condition as having the hammer fully down or hammer back with the safety on. Rule 8.1.5.3 describes what selective action is. See 5.2.2 for handling an improperly safe gun outside a COF. Rule 10.5.11.2 states the DQable condition. Rule 8.2.5 covers re-holstering during a COF. You can always buy a decocking sp-01. Ok G, a decocker puts the gun at half cock right? Also a Decocker doesn't full Decock the gun it just takes it half way, or at least my PCR does. I'm in the crowd that believes a decocker on a CZ doesn't get the job done that you still need to lower the hammer all the way down. Some guns do fully Decock it I just don't think the CZ is one of them. Doesn't the NROI ruling on this subject say otherwise: Decocker at half cock "Question: Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd? Answer: Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed." Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Doesn't the NROI ruling on this subject say otherwise: Decocker at half cock "Question: Does the CZ decocker or others similar, lower the hammer sufficiently to comply with Production division, and if not, how would they comply with the wording in 10.5.9 without being DQ'd? Answer: Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed." Great! I didn't see this one. If the hammer is deemed safe at half cock on a decocker version of a CZ, why wouldn't it be deemed safe on a non-decocker version of a CZ? Good question. Might just be a "this was how it was built and designed" things. Yes. The rules need to work for all manufacturers' guns -- so they were designed from a systems perspective. A CZ without a decocker is a different gun (from a rules perspective) than a CZ with a decocker..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Trigger pull force seems the same to me...might a few millimeters of pull shaved off. The "half cocked" position isn't anywhere near halfway cocked...more like 1/8th cocked. I just checked my SP01. Hammer fully down - 6.75# Hammer @ half cock - 6.25# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Is half a pound enough of an advantage to make it mandatory to be all the way down with the hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torogi Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Maybe its not only the poundage we are talking about but the length of pull from half cock. I may be wrong but i think beretta when decocked is all the way down. It will be unfair if for a manually decocked CZ goes only half way when it can go all the way down. It can be done safely. Its just unfortunate that it slipped when you did it. Personally, the rule the way it is, is perfectly fine. Ive seen it happen, and most time, user error. Even at decocking half way, if it slips, unless you let go of the trigger that fast, it will go bang. Try this 1. Since you are used to light spring, go back using it. Switch primers if you need to. OR 2. SP01 tactical. It has decocker, but you have to compensate it with more expensive/harder trigger job and longer reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Dan- if you start at the half-cock position, does it still require the same trigger pull force to fire the first shot as if it were completely de-cocked? it is absolutely an easier and shorter trigger pull from half-cock (decocked) than from fully down. I agree that it would be safer (slightly) to let non-decocker guns go to the same spot as the decockers, but I also thought this was pretty much 100% settled for production. if you have a decocker, start position is where the decocker puts the hammer. if you don't have a decocker, start position is fully down. I have one of each, so I did a fair amount of research on the issue when I first started shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonNC Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I emailed/asked the DNROI about half cock with a CZ that doesn't have a mechanical decocker - asked if, since it's okay to have the decocker models at half cock (because that's considered "safe,") it is possible to allow the non-decocker CZ's to start at that same position...told him that it would pretty much eliminate the possibility of an accidental discharge. The reply I got was "I will bring this before the BOD to see if the exception could include handguns without a decocker, it will probably take a ruling or rule change, I will keep you posted." Might be good if anyone else who'd like to see CZ shooters able to start at the 'half' cock position to drop an email in to the DNROI as well...you can email him at dnroi@uspsa.org. I just sent an email to the DNROI, and I'm not even a USPSA member ( yet...) I'm not quite ready for my first match (still need to get a belt and mag pouches), but this (a rule change) is something that could make me jump in sooner. I have no problem using just my SH thumb to decock fully, it's just easier to do with the pistol pointing to the ground, not the berm, so that's out... Pinching the hammer works fine, but I can see how it could "slip" with sweaty fingers and the jitters. Releasing the hammer onto my thumb (which is coving the FP channel) and then rolling my thumb slowly out of the way seems to work great as well, as long as you don't involuntarily flinch/move your thumb out of the way . Or we could all be over thinking this and just decock the damn things whichever way works the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 Unless someone tells me there's a problem with what they see in this video, this is how I'm going to make ready with the CZ going forward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t60eKEtsSdo Allen wrench is in the wristband, pull the slide back to chamber a round, take the allen wrench out of the wristband, slide allen wrench through the skeletonized hammer, use my index and middle fingers as hooks around the allen wrench, pull back on the hammer and pull the trigger, gently lower the hammer, put allen wrench back in wristband...I can still get behind the hammer a little bit with the allen wrench in there, at least when the hammer is first released, so I might as well do that as an extra precaution...and I'll keep my left hand connected to my right for stability and just ride it up my right hand carefully to put the hammer all the way down. Doing this should remove any chance that the hammer might slip out of my fingers - the allen wrench would have to break or my fingers would have to get sawed off at the knuckles for that hammer to slip into free fall. The only risk here is that I don't ease the hammer down gently enough, but that risk is always going to be there. I tried the method of putting my thumb behind the hammer and rolling it out, but it doesn't work smoothly for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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