Practical Use Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Maybe for revolvers, but otherwise, makes no sense to me. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 I don't understand ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Practical Use Posted August 12, 2004 Author Share Posted August 12, 2004 Why do you have to shoot one classifier for CDP and another for ESP. For example: 1911 .45 in CDP, and then need to shoot the classifier a 2nd time for your 1911 in .40 for ESP. It makes no sense to me. If you classify as a _____, then you should be a ____ in all divisions. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 I think I see where you are coming from Ed and I tend to agree. The rational for the current system would seem to be that even if the guns are similar they are not the same and some individuals will have varying skill levels depending upon the gun in use. Other than the hassle of reshooting the classifier I don't see it as a big deal. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Practical Use Posted August 12, 2004 Author Share Posted August 12, 2004 It seems to me, from watching the people I shoot with, that about 99% of the time they classify the same regardless of the gun. With that said, I suppose that if I am shooting CDP with a 1911 5", and SSP with a Glock 27, I might not shoot as well with the short barreled Glock. The counter agruement to that is the shooter at one of our matches (Master IDPA and Master IPSC) was 1st overall in the match with a .40 small Glock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Okay, I understand now. That's actually a decent point ... it's not like CDP and ESP are as different as USPSA Open and Limited Divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Well... It seems that if you are going to have different score/time requirements to make a particular class in a particular division, you must require that the score be earned in each division. As an aside, it seems strange that it is easier to make a higher class in SSP (typically "easy to shoot", "low recoiling" 9mms with 11 rounds in the gun) than it is with a "heavy recoiling" "lotsa reloading" single stack 1911. I'm right on the edge between MM and SS in CDP, but the same score would put me solidly into SS in SSP. Should I then have a SS rating in SSP and a MM in CDP? I think The Founders wanted to be sure there were plenty of opportunities to win, so they made multiple division/classes. If we want to stick with this principle (and I think it is a good idea, newbies loooove it) then we need different score for each division/class, and you have to earn each one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 As an aside, it seems strange that it is easier to make a higher class in SSP (typically "easy to shoot", "low recoiling" 9mms with 11 rounds in the gun) than it is with a "heavy recoiling" "lotsa reloading" single stack 1911. But in SSP you don't have that great 1911 trigger. Which, to me anyway, makes more difference than 9mm vs. .45 recoil. "Lotsa reloading" with a .45 vs. a 9mm in IDPA? C'mon, those two more rounds in the mag don't make that much difference. The best score off all divisions at our monthly IDPA matches is usually from a CDP guy. I'm right on the edge between MM and SS in CDP, but the same score would put me solidly into SS in SSP. Should I then have a SS rating in SSP and a MM in CDP? No. Not unless you can fire a Sharpshooter score in SSP. If you can't, there must be something to that "guns in different divisions are innately harder/easier to shoot" thing, right? Just looking at the numbers/times to make rank in the various division doesn't mean it's "easier" in SSP than CDP. The only way that would be true was if the guns legal in every division were all as easy to shoot. And they're not. I think the powers-that-be at IDPA High Command did an amazingly good job of setting standards to make rank among the divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 The theory behind the different standards to make rank on the classifier is that Stock Service Revolver is the hardest division to master, and the hardest in which to shoot really well thus it has the most generous standards. I don't have a problem with that. Moving up a notch in difficulty, we have Stock Service Pistol which offers light 9mm recoil but a DA/SA, DAO or Safe Action trigger pull. Most shooters, once they reach a certain level, find trigger pull quality or lack thereof makes much more difference to them than more recoil, within reason of course. Then we have Custom Defensive Pistol which offers the great trigger pulls of the 1911 but .45 level recoil. Finally, we have Enhanced Service Pistol which offers the 1911 triggers pulls of CDP with the light recoil of SSP; since these are the easiest guns of all to shoot well, they have the highest standards to make rank. That all makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Duane - I agree with you, I formulated my post as questions to get people to think about the issue - you very eloquently answered the questions they way I thought they should be answered. My question: "I'm right on the edge between MM and SS in CDP, but the same score would put me solidly into SS in SSP. Should I then have a SS rating in SSP and a MM in CDP?" Was meant to directly address the original post of this thread. "Lotsa reloading" with a .45 vs. a 9mm in IDPA? C'mon, those two more rounds in the mag don't make that much difference. The best score off all divisions at our monthly IDPA matches is usually from a CDP guy." My point excatly! The quotation marks were the give away that I didn't really agree with the position. I guess I disguised my points a little too much. I had 2 real points I was tring to make: that it makes sense to have to earn scores/classifications in each division, and that there is a problem with SSP. But in SSP you don't have that great 1911 trigger. Which, to me anyway, makes more difference than 9mm vs. .45 recoil. Exactly - however, I hear lots of 9 shooters extolling the virtues (one of which is that they can shoot faster becasue there is less recoil than with most other rounds). Our experience in IDPA contradicts that "virtue" of the 9mm. Moving up a notch in difficulty, we have Stock Service Pistol which offers light 9mm recoil but a DA/SA, DAO or Safe Action trigger pull. Most shooters, once they reach a certain level, find trigger pull quality or lack thereof makes much more difference to them than more recoil, within reason of course. Almost - triggers now showing up in SSP are pretty darn good so I think the rationale above may not hold anymore. I have personally fired a Glock 34 with a trigger at about 1 3/4 pounds and about 1/16" longer travel than a typical 1911. It is advertised that all safeties are maintained (any of this sound familiar to this board?). The LGB says: "Action work to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained", so these new triggers don't even bend the SSP rules - they are perfectly legal. What I'm getting at is that the difference in trigger is going away - if you have some custom work done- between SSP and CDP. In which case SSP should be adjusted OR it might also work to move guns with custom triggers to ESP - leave Stock Service Pistol as really stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Exactly - however, I hear lots of 9 shooters extolling the virtues (one of which is that they can shoot faster becasue there is less recoil than with most other rounds). Our experience in IDPA contradicts that "virtue" of the 9mm. Well, let's not get crazy. Less recoil will always be easier to deal with than more recoil. And the 9mm Para's light recoil is a virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 What I'm getting at is that the difference in trigger is going away - if you have some custom work done- between SSP and CDP. In which case SSP should be adjusted OR it might also work to move guns with custom triggers to ESP - leave Stock Service Pistol as really stock. Nah. WAY too hard to enforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I guess I disguised my points a little too much. Irony. Wotta concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonK Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 A five pound minimum trigger pull in SSP would be one way to keep the stock in Stock Service Pistol. It would be pretty easy to justify given the supposed "entry level" nature of that division. Just add an extra step to the chrono station. Back off Glock 34/35 shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Trigger weight limits suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 I vote leaving it alone. That or knock some time off the times for Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Trigger weight limits suck. This is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 That or knock some time off the times for Master. NEVER! What's the point of having a standard to shoot for (pun intended) if you then lower the standard to make it easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 NEVER! What's the point of having a standard to shoot for (pun intended) if you then lower the standard to make it easier? I meant make it harder to make Master. The times are fat by 10-15 seconds. Even Revo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Leave 'Master' alone and add another class above that - call it "Pro " or "Gold Medal" or something .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron durham Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Hi Mark: I agree with you 100%. There has probably been more e-mail requests with headquarters to add a new catagory as you mentioned. I am a good example. I am a solid B shooter in 3 divisions of USPSA. And old and decreped as I am, I make Master easy in SSP and ESP. What is wrong with this picture. I shot against Taren Butler at our State Match. I think you probably know where I ended up. Ha. Ron Durham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 I agree that many shooters can make master but can't compete with the top shooters... but what is solution to this? another higher class... more prizes more awards..... or just because a few can shoot better maybe they don't get an award? i kind of like the idea. but who knows what will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Practical Use Posted August 20, 2004 Author Share Posted August 20, 2004 Classifications: Unclassified Novice Marksman Sharpshooter Expert Master High Master Special Master Grand Master (Woops, wrong sport) Super Master Pro Master Divisions: Revolver Stock Service Pistol Carry Triger Stock Service Pistol Competition Trigger Etc, Etc, Etc... Enhanced Service Pistol .40 Cal Carry Trigger 125.00004 Power Factor Actually, I agree with Ron - the classification system may need a tweek. Ed Vernon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 The idea that I like is the concept of a new Champion class. This class would not require any changes to the existing systems. The Champion class is a new class above Master. The Champion class is awarded to shooters that win a division at Nationals or other large sanctioned match were the competitor bests at least 15 Masters competing in that division. This new class is a "bump via win" only division and the classifier times are not changed. After a shooter has been bumped to Champion class they only compete for the division Champion trophy at sanctioned matches. If they don't get it they don't get an award. This means that no additional trophies are required over the system currently described in the rulebook. I think that most top shooters are only interested in getting the Division Champion trophy anyway, so I doubt that many would complain. I know I wouldn't. I also say we apply the class change retroactively to all National Division Champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 The Champion class is a new class above Master. The Champion class is awarded to shooters that win a division at Nationals or other large sanctioned match were the competitor bests at least 15 Masters competing in that division. This new class is a "bump via win" only division and the classifier times are not changed. 15 Masters in any event isn't going to happen , other than Nationals. I reviewed the most current state results and here are the total Masters per each division: Ok. CDPx1 SSRx2Wi. CDPx1 ESPx2 SSPx2Ca. CDPx 2 ESPx4 SSPx9 SSRx1Pa. CDPx9 ESPx7 SSPx7 SSRx2 While there may be more masters listed in other events that I didn't review - I think a trend is beginning to show I could support the Champion class if it was any division Master who beats 3 or more in his division in a regional or state match. Until that day mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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