Reloading Rules Question

[wsimpso1]

I have attended a couple of matches recently where a low barricade was to be used as cover for shots from both ends. We had to stay behind the cover during the movement from one end to the other, and we had six or eight shots from the first target array. I wanted to do a reload with retention during the crouching run from one end to the other, figuring that it is no different from taking a target array from each side of a narrow barricade with a reload in between and taking the step across during the reload...

At one club's stage RO said that he was not intending that and did not like the idea of reloading on the move, but that he had allowed it all day would allow it now. I chatted with a club official while we watched anotehr shooter on that COF, and commented that I liked the opportunity to do that reload while moving behind the low wall. He too expressed discontent about people doing that. When I pointed out that if the stage designers feel a need to prevent that, they can just set up two hard covers and have us cross open ground in between - that forces the reload while standing.

At the other club, the RO said that he would PE us if we reloaded on the move because the book says that we are not allowed to reload while moving. I tried (only once) to make the point that I was not leaving cover during the reload, just moving behind the cover. His response was angry - I suspect that he had already been challenged on this, and I let it drop, figuring that I was shooting it the same as everybody else, even if it was neither a tactical nor a rules requirement.

So, what is the deal on reloading while moving while continuously behind cover?

Billski

[NWFlorida DPS]

So, what is the deal on reloading while moving while continuously behind cover?

Best thing to do in this situation would be ask the stage SO. The only probem with doing this is if the club is using "roving" SO's,, that is the SO stays with the squad instead of the stage.

I personally don't see the problem of reloading on the move, as long as you're behind cover,, but what do I know? I'm just a match director and Safety Officer Instructor.

[uscbigdawg]

I don't see a problem with it either. If you're running along say a CMU wall (cover) or even a wall inside of a house (concealment) reloading on the move, is much better than being a sitting duck.

Shoot, move, shoot, move, SHOOOOOOT!!!!

Just a personal philosophy...that's very effective.

Rich

[Mark Perez]

You would be perfectly within the rules to reload on the move behind cover.

19.             PROPER USE OF COVER: If cover is available, the shooter must use it! More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. If the shooter is shooting from low cover, one knee must be on the ground while shooting. When using vertical cover such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs/feet must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading.

[wsimpso1]

That was the way that I (and others) had interpreted the rules, but here I was officials at two clubs that thought otherwise...

Thanks for the reading...

Billski

[John Forsyth]

Mark hit it on the head, you can reload on the move behind cover. You can not move from cover with an empty gun.

[wlktheduk]

Similiar question at local club match this weekend. A description of the COF:

Facing away from 3 targets (T1,T2,T3) turn and engage these targets while retreating to cover behind WALL A.

While using WALL A for cover, engage 3 more targets, (T4,T5,T6)

After engaging these 3 targets, move to WALL B and engage 2 more targets (T7, T8) using WALL B for cover.

The question was: can you reload while moving from WALL A to WALL B?

(Note: T7 & T8 are not visible until you get to WALL B )

Thanks

[Mark Perez]

The question was: can you reload while moving from WALL A to WALL B?

(Note: T7 & T8 are not visible until you get to WALL B )

Minimum required rounds are 16: assuming scored best 2 hits/target.

Revos ; would have to complete loading at Wall 'A' prior to moving to 'B'

re R19 :

All reloads must be executed behind cover, if cover is available, and must be completed before leaving cover (Shooters may not move from one position of cover to another with an empty weapon). The firearm will be considered LOADED when the fresh magazine is seated and the slide is closed or revolver cylinder is closed. Failure to reload behind cover or moving from cover with an empty weapon will result in a three (3) second procedural penalty per infraction.

Most Everyone Else ; would have enough rounds after reloading at wall 'A' to complete the stage w/o reloading.

I suppose if you use the logic in the prior examples (R19) and the non-revo shooter was completely covered during the movement from the targets T7 and T8- don't see why not.

Might be slower in the long run though. Much greater chance of fumbling a TL/RWR while moving - too risky for me .

[Sac Law Man]

I agree, if behind cover and not exposed to any target previously engaged or yet to be engaged you should be able to reload on the move. However most of the matches I have shot, including the CA state IDPA match last week, they made it very clear that you may not reload while moving..period.

I believe what happens is people questioning what is cover, and how far away or close can you be from the cover. Here is an example..

O

_______ A

[Sac Law Man]

OOPs...continuing with my example

0

______ A

i

i

i x x

i

____________ B

x x

Here is the scenario, you the shooter, O, start behind wall A. at signal you draw and engage the two targets to the left of wall A, you then move to wall B, around the right side and engage the two targets to the right of Wall B. People have raised this very issue..they ask, why cant I reload while moving from wall A to B, I am not exposed to any targets, and I am behind cover? Although I think this is a clear cut example of moving from cover B4 reloading, you do get those who want to push and take every oppurtunity or advantage.

So the questions I ask are how far can you be from cover while moving and reloading, and what if you cover happens to be 20 feet wide, is it wise or leagal to cover that distance with an unloaded gun?

[Sac Law Man]

Well my examle was supposed to be in the center of the page and off set..didn't happen..Oh well, maybe you can still see what I was trying to portray..

[JD45]

At the matches that I shoot it is the same deal. I don't ever remember being able to leave a point before reloading. I wish they would change that rule. Until then, you can do a Tac- load and store your mag while moving (this is legal by the book). As soon as you seat your mag, be gone quickly.

[wsimpso1]

The comments about reloading while moving from one cover to another bring up another whole level. So I have done soe more thinking. Perhaps a visit to the underlying philosophy is in order here.

We accept requiring reloads behind cover (when available), and the reason for this is to avoid being in the open without being able to fight back. So, I can see the SO's prohibiting reloading while moving from one place of cover to another place of cover with open ground between them, even if our analysis shows the two pieces of cover to overlap relative to the known bad guys. In a real fight, you do not know where all of the bad guys are, so you want to accept an empty gun only while at the piece of cover that you have cleared.

Applying that thought to a curved wall (where you can not see the other end from the first end) or two walls with a corner, you would want to finish the reload before entering the vulnerable space that was out of sight at the start. I can see the SO requiring the reload before a certain place for a curved wall or before rounding a corner when traveling along two walls.

Now lets test the single, straight, continuous wall (the question posed to start this thread): You have cleared the piece of cover and know it to be as safe a place as you can have right now, so reloading while traveling along it should be as secure a way of loading as you can do. It appears to be no different than short vertical cover that requires a step to go from one side to the other, and you take that step while changing mags. Therefore the rules make sense, and the SO's should be allowing the reload while behind the wall. Ok, I am convinced... Now for the reticent SO's at certain clubs.

Billski

[davidwiz]

There is a difference btwn cover and concealment that I think is often overlooked. Some people mistake concealment for cover. A sheet of plywood is not cover.

[geezer-lock]

There is a difference btwn cover and concealment that I think is often overlooked.  Some people mistake concealment for cover.  A sheet of plywood is not cover.

True but hardly applicable in competition. A piece of black paper is not hard cover either but it is understood that a full diameter hit on the black paper is scored as a miss as if it were body armor or brick.

geezer

[geezer-lock]

So, what is the deal on reloading while moving while continuously behind cover?

Best thing to do in this situation would be ask the stage SO. The only probem with doing this is if the club is using "roving" SO's,, that is the SO stays with the squad instead of the stage.

I personally don't see the problem of reloading on the move, as long as you're behind cover,, but what do I know? I'm just a match director and Safety Officer Instructor.

I'm with NWFlorida DPS. In competition always fullfill the requirements of the COF as directed by the SO. Resolve all those questions before you LAMR.

geezer