dezz Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Hi all, anyone shooting a ESP gun that does not go to slidelock? Have a Cameron custom in 40 (with bushing) that could be legal for IDPA. Use it for USPSA limited but went out for fun and shot a classifier with it and smoked my best time ever with my glock 34. Only problem is it does not go to slidelock. Checked IDPA rules an that is not a problem. Just wondering if anyone out there is using a similar set up and if the no slidelock thing is a deal breaker in IDPA. Only bad thing I see is having to be sharp on the stick and know your rounds left. That could be a problem for me... thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Just about have to have it lock back in IDPA. You shoot to empty (Gun AND Mag) or face a penalty for dropping the mag on the ground. If you shoot to empty and reload you will lose that time it takes to rack the slide.... All it takes is having stock followers in your IDPA mags and (possibly) changing your slide stop when you shoot IDPA.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 If your 'math' is not perfect... everytime... it will bit you on the butt at some point. That's the only drawback I can see. If you do use it, tell the SO, in advance, that your slide does not lock back. That will save him from becoming distracted... and looking for PEs... when you dump with the slide forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 IDPA you really need slide lock. There is no way to cycle the slide as fast as you can just drop the slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Just thinking math here: In an 8 stage club match, shooting ESP, the maximum number of reloads a shooter will be required to make is 8. A string in IDPA can't require more than 18 rounds. There is also a good chance there will be a stage or 2 out of those 8 that is 11 rounds or less. And, most club matches run 6-to 8 stages, so there may not be more than four or five reloads. But, let's assume 8 reloads. If the insert mag/overhand rack the slide reload is smooth and practiced, it won't take more than .5 second longer than a reload hitting the slide release. 8 x .5 = 4 seconds - or 8 down points. The OP states he shot the IDPA classifier with the non-slide lock gun and significantly beat his previous times with another gun. The Classifier has 2 slide lock reloads required, so they apparently were done smoothly. If the accuracy/handling/transition factor enough to negate those "8 down points", then the slide down reload could be a wash. If the accuracy/handling/transition factor provides noticeably less down points than his other gun... and beats those "8 down points", it could be a gain. I wouldn't automatically discount the non-slide locking gun. The best course is to just go shoot it in a club match and see how it does. It may not be a handicap if the shooter is real comfortable with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Actually I have found the Grams followers, with a properly tuned slide stop, to be much more reliable in locking the slide back on STI/SVI guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezz Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 ok got it, seems like the correct option is to get the slid lock to work properly if I want to shot IDPA with it. Do not really want my limited gun going to slide lock so sounds like I need a Trojan in 9mm?? In the mean time will shoot a local IDPA match next sunday with it and see how my math skills are. Thank you all for you input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 You can change followers and the slide stop a lot cheaper than buying a new pistol.... BUT...I like the way you think..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike l m Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 That is true Merlin, it depends on much money dezz has. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Just thinking math here: In an 8 stage club match, shooting ESP, the maximum number of reloads a shooter will be required to make is 8. A string in IDPA can't require more than 18 rounds. There is also a good chance there will be a stage or 2 out of those 8 that is 11 rounds or less. And, most club matches run 6-to 8 stages, so there may not be more than four or five reloads. But, let's assume 8 reloads. If the insert mag/overhand rack the slide reload is smooth and practiced, it won't take more than .5 second longer than a reload hitting the slide release. 8 x .5 = 4 seconds - or 8 down points. The OP states he shot the IDPA classifier with the non-slide lock gun and significantly beat his previous times with another gun. The Classifier has 2 slide lock reloads required, so they apparently were done smoothly. If the accuracy/handling/transition factor enough to negate those "8 down points", then the slide down reload could be a wash. If the accuracy/handling/transition factor provides noticeably less down points than his other gun... and beats those "8 down points", it could be a gain. I wouldn't automatically discount the non-slide locking gun. The best course is to just go shoot it in a club match and see how it does. It may not be a handicap if the shooter is real comfortable with it. All true. The issue is when you "miss count" and drop a mag early and get a 3 sec "bonus" or pull the trigger on an empty gun for another "bonus". If you count right all the time, I agreee the impact is not much, but... there is risk. BTW, I've seen differences between 1st and 2nd be less than 1 or 2 sec many times so that little bit of time can be significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Just thinking math here: In an 8 stage club match, shooting ESP, the maximum number of reloads a shooter will be required to make is 8. A string in IDPA can't require more than 18 rounds. There is also a good chance there will be a stage or 2 out of those 8 that is 11 rounds or less. And, most club matches run 6-to 8 stages, so there may not be more than four or five reloads. But, let's assume 8 reloads. If the insert mag/overhand rack the slide reload is smooth and practiced, it won't take more than .5 second longer than a reload hitting the slide release. 8 x .5 = 4 seconds - or 8 down points. The OP states he shot the IDPA classifier with the non-slide lock gun and significantly beat his previous times with another gun. The Classifier has 2 slide lock reloads required, so they apparently were done smoothly. If the accuracy/handling/transition factor enough to negate those "8 down points", then the slide down reload could be a wash. If the accuracy/handling/transition factor provides noticeably less down points than his other gun... and beats those "8 down points", it could be a gain. I wouldn't automatically discount the non-slide locking gun. The best course is to just go shoot it in a club match and see how it does. It may not be a handicap if the shooter is real comfortable with it. All true. The issue is when you "miss count" and drop a mag early and get a 3 sec "bonus" or pull the trigger on an empty gun for another "bonus". If you count right all the time, I agreee the impact is not much, but... there is risk. BTW, I've seen differences between 1st and 2nd be less than 1 or 2 sec many times so that little bit of time can be significant. In ESP, the spread between 1st and even 4th place at a major match is often less than 4 seconds. Depending on your classification. I don't know that you could rack the slide and punch out, settle the gun down and break the shot in only .5 seconds longer than it take to just drop the slide. I shoot pins with my USPSA limited gun. The slide stop has a nice detent in it and the slide will not lock back and if I mis-manage rounds and have to reload on an empty chamber it takes close to 2 seconds. I can do a speed reload on a hot gun at right around .6 and a slide lock reload at right at 1 second. I am just an expert...so maybe that is not indicitive of really good shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 If followers and a slide stop will allow the gun to lock-back normally, why doesn't it lock back now? That is, just about everyone seems to disable the slide lock-back on their S_I, because the possibility of premature lockback, or bullets bumping the slide stop, are issues more likely to cause trouble during a match than is accidentally running your 22-rounder dry? So, why would those potential problems go away when you load ten rather than load to capacity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 (edited) If you use the right followers (I use Grams) and properly tune the slide release then you won't have any problems with the slide locking back early on a STI/SVI regardless of how many rounds you load into the magazine. All of my Limited division STI's and IDPA ESP and CDP STI's lock the slide back whem the magazines are empty and have never locked back early using both STI and SVI tubes in 40 and 45. I guess it's just what parts you use and how well you can set the gun and magazines up ... Edited August 15, 2012 by Bob Hostetter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 There was a clarification by Robert Ray sometime back where he said you could not make the slide stop non-functional. I don't have it at my finger tips right now. Maybe the TT's will fix that (LOL!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I can do a speed reload on a hot gun at right around .6 and a slide lock reload at right at 1 second. I am just an expert...so maybe that is not indicitive of really good shooters. IMO...A .6 hot reload and a 1.0 reload from slidelock are WAY up in the Distinguished Master/GM time frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Hello: Use STI stock followers and the 140mm STI springs in your 126mm tubes. Get a new slide stop and you should be good to go. You only load 10 rounds in the mags and the 140mm springs help lock the slide back better than the shorter springs. I use a Wilson 45 extended slide stop and cut the tang off the back. It works great even on my 9mm Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I can do a speed reload on a hot gun at right around .6 and a slide lock reload at right at 1 second. I am just an expert...so maybe that is not indicitive of really good shooters. IMO...A .6 hot reload and a 1.0 reload from slidelock are WAY up in the Distinguished Master/GM time frames. The draws and the reloads are the easy parts. I have practiced a million or so, they are free. Shooting fast and accurately are the hard parts as are entering and leaving positions but I am getting there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I can do a speed reload on a hot gun at right around .6 and a slide lock reload at right at 1 second. I am just an expert...so maybe that is not indicitive of really good shooters. IMO...A .6 hot reload and a 1.0 reload from slidelock are WAY up in the Distinguished Master/GM time frames. The draws and the reloads are the easy parts. I have practiced a million or so, they are free. Shooting fast and accurately are the hard parts as are entering and leaving positions but I am getting there... , I would be extremely interested, and also in your debt if you could possibly teach me the .6 second speed reload as well as the much coveted 1 second slide lock reload! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I don't shoot much IDPA so I don't worry much about it. I was at range last weekend practicing with a local IDPA master. We shot ESP vs ESP and I was able to beat him every time. He ran to slidelock, I racked my gun. I can see it being a problem losing count on a stage. Let's be real you are only shooting 10 rds at a time. Maybe one day the local range will start up an IDPA club. One second slide lock reloads are pretty fast, but not unreasonable. Hot ipsc style reload in .6 are smoking. I like to keep mine in .9 to 1 second range in a match situation. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Just thinking math here: In an 8 stage club match, shooting ESP, the maximum number of reloads a shooter will be required to make is 8. A string in IDPA can't require more than 18 rounds. Shot a match yesterday with a stage that had the first 2 mags downloaded to 6 or two reloads in 18 rounds, 6 reload, 6 reload, 6. I don't care how little time we are talking about but the 5 gun master in me doesn't want to give any of it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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