My DQ

[Alaskapopo]

The answer to most all of the threads like this is that is might have been their fault, but it is your responsibility.

This is very true as well. However under the pressure of the timer brains scramble and the RO becomes the person in charge of safety. When the person in charge says stop or go we listen sometimes even when we know better.

I agree we have to becareful of becoming to rigid and losing the spirt of the rules. If it were at my match I would not have DQ'd the shooter if the RO told him that. But to each his own. It was not my match.

Pat

How can you make a rule then not enforce it?

If the rules state it must be empty then it must be empty.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2

I would call it RO interference and give him a re-shoot. You need to be adaptable to evolving situations. DQing the shooter for this in this circumstance is wrong in my opinion and ultimately its up to the match director.

Pat

[Jesse Tischauser]

The RO said it was good to go, and then wants to DQ you for doing what the RO told you to do?

The RO doesn't "want" to DQ anyone. Competitors DQ themselves.

Fire the RO? We're all volunteers. I'm not sure how you'll have a match if you blame the RO for competitor (in)action.

Yea, stand there and argue with the RO that you are not good to go....I think the point being the RO told him the gun was clear.....Lets say you are shooting at a long range piece of steel and the RO calls a hit but you are pretty sure you didn't hit it but move on to the next target..you finish the stage and then he comes up and tells you he made a mistake and that you didn't hit it and gives you a mike, what would you say to that...pretty much the same thing.

That exact thing happened to me at LaRue this year. I rattled through 4-5 pieces of 50 yard rifle steal so fast I got the call on the 6th piec even though I missed. When I heard hit I took off running then the RO said miss. I did a stutter step and turbed backwards and said say what. Totally messed with my head and the remander of the stage.

[Overwatcher]

Like I said previously I'm not trying to say the RO did a bad job, I accept total responsibility for not clearing the gun. Just seeing how it would be ruled upon at a major match.

I've been shooting uspsa for a long time now but am new to three gun so I didn't know if the RO interference rule applied. I only ask because I plan on shooting a lot more three gun this year and next.

The RO is a good guy and I don't hold him responsible. Would I have DQ'd me, I dont know, I'm bias so I can't say honestly...

It was a club match, and I learned something new about my shotgun. The RO was just trying to help (even though it didn't end up that way) but it was my job to clear the gun as per the course rule.

Ultimately after it was all said and done, your last sentence sums it up. Bummer on the DQ but you found value in it.

I would feel bad as an RO,giving you the sense of urgency to move on and not double check.I would give you a re-shoot,and if it was a big match, I would go get the MD and let him make the call.

[StephensOutdoors]

The RO said it was good to go, and then wants to DQ you for doing what the RO told you to do?

The RO doesn't "want" to DQ anyone. Competitors DQ themselves.

Fire the RO? We're all volunteers. I'm not sure how you'll have a match if you blame the RO for competitor (in)action.

Yea, stand there and argue with the RO that you are not good to go....I think the point being the RO told him the gun was clear.....Lets say you are shooting at a long range piece of steel and the RO calls a hit but you are pretty sure you didn't hit it but move on to the next target..you finish the stage and then he comes up and tells you he made a mistake and that you didn't hit it and gives you a mike, what would you say to that...pretty much the same thing.

That exact thing happened to me at LaRue this year. I rattled through 4-5 pieces of 50 yard rifle steal so fast I got the call on the 6th piec even though I missed. When I heard hit I took off running then the RO said miss. I did a stutter step and turbed backwards and said say what. Totally messed with my head and the remander of the stage.

This is a good thread! As a multigun RO & a shooter, this is interesting. It's important for shooters to know their rights & it's also import for RO's to either live with their mistakes or man up to them. With the empty chamber shotgun with rounds in the tube, safety on ... It's definitely not cool for the RO to tell the shooter "you're good" & then turn around & give a DQ. The RO shouldn't say anything to start with. As others have said it is ultimately your responsibility but if the RO says you're good, why would you waste more time on it. Had the MD been called, this could have gone a couple different ways depending on the MD. Some 3-gun matches, there is only 1 way to ground a safe firearm & any deviation of that is a DQ. But most matches have options on how a firearm is to be grounded (most commonly is gun TOTALY EMPTY or safety on), but movng forward & in front of a grounded gun it's more common than not for the gun to be totally empty. So ... know your critical match rules ahead of time but always call the MD or RM for a DQ.

Jesse - That sucks! Once "hit" leaves an RO's mouth there should be no take backs. RO's should only call hits, never a miss. As an RO, calling steel hits can be challenging in certain situations. There's seldom anywhere to hide from comp blast so it's like getting punched in the face all day & if your shooter is a guy that's going to wax 6 plates at 50 yards in 1.2 seconds ... man, he's on his way to the next target array before you see or hear that hit on the last plate. It's ALWAYS a good idea to have a 2nd RO or person call steel hits to help the RO with the timer. As a shooter, I like to have somebody other than an RO or scorekeeper help watch my hits ... sometimes you get freebies, but if you happen to get hosed real bad by bad calls from RO's, especially at a big match, it could mean the difference between a reshoot & dropping a couple spots on the prize table.

[mpeltier]

I just did something similar to a shooter at a match. He asked me if all the targets were down and I said yes only to find out that they weren't. I had to reshoot him.

This is a little more serious because of an unsafe gun being involved. I would vote you get a reshoot.

Unsafe why??? It was on safe without a round in the chamber. I have yet to see a gun go off in that condition. Have you? I hope the RO bought him a beer afterwards cause I feel he got screwed. He did not abandon it per the rules but it was at the RO's command that he was good to go. No one was in danger, sometimes I believe common sense should prevail. Score as shot, why reeshoot?

Edited August 12, 2012 by mpeltier

[assaulter]

I just did something similar to a shooter at a match. He asked me if all the targets were down and I said yes only to find out that they weren't. I had to reshoot him.

This is a little more serious because of an unsafe gun being involved. I would vote you get a reshoot.

Unsafe why??? It was on safe without a round in the chamber. I have yet to see a gun go off in that condition. Have you? I hope the RO bought him a beer afterwards cause I feel he got screwed. He did not abandon it per the rules but it was at the RO's command that he was good to go. No one was in danger, sometimes I believe common sense should prevail. Score as shot, why reeshoot?

After reading two pages, this is exactly what I think too.

[T Bacus]

Not related to the DQ but in the future shoot the gun dry. It is never faster, one shot or ten, to manually unload the gun (a tube fed shotgun)as opposed to just burning the excess rounds into the berm.

[glock34shooter]

Not related to the DQ but in the future shoot the gun dry. It is never faster, one shot or ten, to manually unload the gun (a tube fed shotgun)as opposed to just burning the excess rounds into the berm.

I have always hated this practice. It goes against everything we have been taught as young people learning to shoot. When I teach officers and my kids I stress that they are responsible for every round that comes out of their weapon. I have seen so many different shooters do it in a way that has made me cringe. I think that if this it is done it should be at the target area or stands. I have seen guys fire rounds when the shotgun wasn't even on their shoulder. I think the guys running matches that don't allow you to deck a shotgun that is on safe should consider what they are allowing people to do as opposed to allowing the safety do its job. What would a spectator think if they saw someone using this practice.

Matt

[busyhawk]

I would think you have a pretty good argument. RO shouldnt have coached you or told you to do anything. I know he was just trying to be helpful, but it cost you. As a RM or MD, I would have let you reshoot. That is RO interference in my opinion.

MD has no power over the range or the match once the shooting begins.

I would have DQed you. I would have felt bad about it, but if the rule is that your gun has to be empty before going forward, and you did that, then I'm not sure there's much room to work with there. You cannot expect the RO to know how to operate every type of shotgun. He was mistaken to give you bad advice, but ultimately, the safety of a competitor's equipment is their responsibility alone.

ROs are there to assist you getting through the course of fire safely, if they can. But it is not their role to know how to operate your firearm or to make it safe. That rests on you.

The solution to this might just be modifying the rules. If a gun's chamber is empty and it is on safe, I don't see why that gun can't be dumped into a dump barrel and the stage continue.

This is partially why multi-gun is hard, because of course safety is important, but stages should test shooting skill, not your ability to unload your gun as quickly as possible.

Just a couple of observations:

At the Texas Multigun match the MD (Sheldon) made many calls that the RM should have made and that was just the way it went for speed and efficient calls on the spot...right or wrong.

Some of the other story behind this story, the ROs were told to help the shooters since many of the shooters were new to the sport. This MD wanted all to have a good time and wanted the ROs to help if they could.

Now for future actions,(Matt) I would have called for the RM and argued the point that I was just following the instructions of the RO. If you don't stand up for the question then I know what you will get...nothing. If you do call for the RM then at least you will get the benefit of a higher answer and know what was to be instead of questioning it later down the road. We all learn the hard way it seems.

I am not sure why there would be a reshoot for this since it sounded like Matt got to finish the stage but was DQ'd after the stage was complete?

Another post (T Bacus) suggest that you shoot the SG dry...some matches like FNH you are not allowed to!!!! Know the rules before you try this!!

I was shooting the USPSA Multigun Nats several years ago and forgot a target with my shotgun and moved on down the COF with the RO in tow only to look back and see the target...I decided to go back and engage the target and all the time had to yell at the top of my lungs for the RO to get out of my way. After the COF was finished, I argued/discussed with the RO that I wish to have a reshoot since it was clear that he hindered my movement. He advised me under USPSA that unless I touched the RO I was not entitled to a reshoot. Well I learned 2 things that day...1. If a USPSA RO gets in my way to just mow him down (in a safe manor) and 2. Always ask for the RM to get the real story! It might not get the results I wanted but I can sleep better at night!

Since I RO many Multigun matches all over the U.S. I learn something almost every shoot and none of the ROs are perfect...except I guess Doug

Keep it real and Matt, you took it like a man and did the honorable thing!

See you on the range,

Sincerely,

Busyhawk

[MattYvip]

I appreciate all the good advice. I shot a 3gun match this weekend and did fairly well. I didn't make the mistake of leaving the round in the tube again!

As far as not calling the RM, it was a club match. The RO is a good dude and I didn't ground the weapon in accordance with their rules. I'm didn't need to reshoot the stage necessarily but I didn't want the DQ obviously. Like I said, I was just curious that if I paid 300 bucks and traveled and had hotel if I could keep shooting... thats all. I mean who wouldn't go after the RO told you?

But by no means was I trying to bad mouth the RO, and it was a club match so it really only cost me a small match fee. Thanks again for all the advice and keep it coming!

[wdlong1]

This topic reminded me of a local 3 gun match that I shoot. It is hosted by a very small club that mainly shoots IDPA. When they first announced the match the official word was that they were going to use IDPA multigun rules. Interest dropped immediately but we decided we would try it anyway as there are really no other close 3 gun matches. At the first match there were many regular 3 gunners that showed up with all kinds of gear (including open class gear). We convinced the match director to adopt IMG rules on the spot. He reluctantly agreed but did and we pressed forward. I guess the point is that this entire issue is resolved by adopting accepted standard rules for 3 gun. I personally think that clubs that go off the grid for their rules (particularly safety rules) are exposing themselves to some liability anyway. One can argue that IMA rules are not universally accepted and variations exist, but I think it behooves those that are not that familiar with the sport to rely on some that are. I am not sure why this is such an issue for 3 gun - I guess because 3 gun pulls from so many different types of shooters (not just USPSA guys)that there is a resistance to unified rules. I believe this is a mistake and certainly leads to unnecessary DQ's as in this case. I am not suggesting that IMA rules are perfect -- but they seem to work well and are transferable from match to match.

So my advice would be to sit down with the match coordinators, offer to get involved (setup, tear down, RO'ing etc)and discuss adopting the IMA rules so everyone know what they are playing and field can be level.

Saying all that -- sounds like the DQ was justified given the rules but would be considered harsh at a local match. If I was your RO and told you that you were good -- you would be good, but there is nothing in the rule book that says I have to help, be honest or anything in this situation. We as RO's should keep our mouths shut when it comes to competitor gun problems but also our word must be iron clad. Bad calls are made - but honesty is critical and if an RO says "your good" (a comment that should not have been made) and it changed your shooting of the stage -- that is clearly interference and you should get a reshoot.

[Alaskapopo]

This topic reminded me of a local 3 gun match that I shoot. It is hosted by a very small club that mainly shoots IDPA. When they first announced the match the official word was that they were going to use IDPA multigun rules. Interest dropped immediately but we decided we would try it anyway as there are really no other close 3 gun matches. At the first match there were many regular 3 gunners that showed up with all kinds of gear (including open class gear). We convinced the match director to adopt IMG rules on the spot. He reluctantly agreed but did and we pressed forward. I guess the point is that this entire issue is resolved by adopting accepted standard rules for 3 gun. I personally think that clubs that go off the grid for their rules (particularly safety rules) are exposing themselves to some liability anyway. One can argue that IMA rules are not universally accepted and variations exist, but I think it behooves those that are not that familiar with the sport to rely on some that are. I am not sure why this is such an issue for 3 gun - I guess because 3 gun pulls from so many different types of shooters (not just USPSA guys)that there is a resistance to unified rules. I believe this is a mistake and certainly leads to unnecessary DQ's as in this case. I am not suggesting that IMA rules are perfect -- but they seem to work well and are transferable from match to match.

So my advice would be to sit down with the match coordinators, offer to get involved (setup, tear down, RO'ing etc)and discuss adopting the IMA rules so everyone know what they are playing and field can be level.

Saying all that -- sounds like the DQ was justified given the rules but would be considered harsh at a local match. If I was your RO and told you that you were good -- you would be good, but there is nothing in the rule book that says I have to help, be honest or anything in this situation. We as RO's should keep our mouths shut when it comes to competitor gun problems but also our word must be iron clad. Bad calls are made - but honesty is critical and if an RO says "your good" (a comment that should not have been made) and it changed your shooting of the stage -- that is clearly interference and you should get a reshoot.

The reality is if something bad happens and some one gets hurt your screwed no matter what rules you played under. The waivers generally are not worth the paper their written on. That is why you have to do the best you can to make sure nothing bad happens.

Pat