Multigun shenanigans?

[LikesToShoot]

We're trying to start up multigun matches at my local USPSA club. Because of some sort of golliwog politics, the USPSA and shooting complex approved match director is primarily a cowboy action shooter.

The club ran a "for fun" match over the weekend, which apparnetly went well (I was unable to attend), and included cowboy shooters.

One of my friends is trying to get the club to run multigun matches there using either IMGA or USPSA multigun rules. However, based on a recent announcement, the MD apparently wants to continue to have the match open to cowboy action shooters and/or rimfire shooters.

Anyone know if it's legal to run a sanctioned club-level match whilemallowing those groups to continue to participate?

Thanks!

I was at the match and it was billed as being "for fun".

Where does the "...sanctioned club-level match" question come into play?

The MD was just trying to get shooters together shooting "for fun". He invited any type shooter and six showed up.

One "Cowboy", one "Western", four shooting his version of "Open"

The lady shooting "Open" used a, new to her, AR for the rifle portion, used a double barrel shotgun without ejectors and I think she switched from a Glock to and XD for the pistol portion. It was fun to see how quickly she shot and reloaded that shotgun.

The "cowboy" shooters shot the same stages but with less rifle and pistol rounds required. Nobody shooting the match had any complaints. We all had lunch together after the match and discussed what we liked and didn't like. The MD will look into improving and changing as he sees fit. At the beginning we thought his idea on scoreing could be tweaked and he changed it right then. It took 5 to 6 Min's. per shooter, no slow down because of the cowboy shooters. Two more shooters on our squad would have cut that time down due to resetting 8 shotgun targets, 8 pistol and 8 rifle targets. (Interesting use of two Clays filled with flour and rubber banded together at 30 yards for reactive rifle shots on one stage mixed woth 2/3 scale USPSA airsoft targets)

Maybe his version of an "outlaw" "wildcat" 3 gun match won't satisfy you if you are dead set on shooting a true 3 gun match. If he takes the "fun" out of with a bunch of rules and equipment restrictions I'll probably pass on future events.

Anyone looking to try a multi-gun "for fun" match with guns they currently own lookout for the next Sparta outlaw match. If you're expecting a serious three gun nation event you may want to look elsewhere.

Steve C. Filla

[Stlhead]

I just wanted to post in a thread with the word "Shenanigans" in the title! The rules for most three gun matches are not all that hard to understand, and I can't remember any of them that say you can't use a five shot revolver and reload it, or a two shot shotgun for that matter. Let em play till the par time and score the targets as they are. Seems simple to me. As long as everyone plays safe, I think that people should be able to shoot whatever they like.

[mose]

Hey Gang thanks for all the response.

As you probably know I am the match director for said event and I think we all had a lot of fun.

My main goal at any event I try to do it to PROMOTE SHOOTING SPORTS AND OUR RIGHT TO USE OUR GUNS!!!

That said although I am very new to USPSA,IDPA, and modern multigun sports. I am not new to shooting sports and I am not just talking cowboy action.

I believe any time we can put people on the range is a good time.

I have heard many wishes for a multi-gun activity here at The World Shooting Complex. Our schedule is very full and when we had a cancelation I thought I would throw something together. My initial thought was have an organizational meeting, see who was really interested , see who could volunteer, blah blah blah. My second though was hey just put a few stages together and play first then build around that. So I went with the second option.

I am aware that I do not know enough about this game yet! to host a competent sanctioned match.

I really honestly do not see what the big deal is, for some one to shoot what ever they own on the same targets as any one else, as long as they are not scored against each other and do not impede the progress of the match.,

Really who cares if the guy behind you is putting with a driver or driving with a pitching wedge as long as he does not bother you.

This particular range has the interest and support to hold a second monthly Cowboy Action Match but I would like to see that range time go to developing another shooting venue. (the cowboy will be more profitable and a lot easier honestly)

I have personally enjoyed the modern action shooting sports a lot lately and invested thousands of my own dollars purchasing the equipment to attempt to learn the game(s) correctly. I hope this will enable me to put together better events for you the modern action shooter.

One of the best things about the World Shooting Complex is that it is not privately owned but rather state owned , that means any one who has the knowledge to run a shooting sport can make arrangements with the state to rent the facility and host their own event .

I will even be available to assist you with what ever we can do to help make your event a great one.

Please feel free to contact me with any questions you may have about the World Shooting Complex or any events we are having or any of the questions you may have about what gets aired on the internet as I will NEVER get involved in such a discussion on line.

Mose Spencer

270-349-4392 cell

mosespencer@yahoo.com

[mose]

double tap

Edited July 10, 2012 by mose

[mose]

must have hit the selector switch on my computer and put it on three round burst

Edited July 10, 2012 by mose

[frag316]

Mose,

I'll be brutally honest with you--my thought when you posted about the match in www.stlouisshooters.com was that it was going to be a hassle. Like I'd said there and here--I've shot matches where people ran what they brung, and it was horrible. Things took way longer than they needed to. I'm very glad to see that you guys pulled off a fun, safe, and challenging match with the challenges of mixing the different styles.

I'd heard some criticisms of a match run earlier last month, which were about what I expected when I saw the attempts at kluging together a bunch of different rulesets. It didn't work out well. You guys, according to everyone I spoke to, did a great job of pulling it off. If there was an emoticon for hats off, I'd use it. So I'll just use this one--

Steve,

Where "sanctioned club-level match" comes into play is a conversation I had with someone who shot the match last weekend and wants to shoot an actual 3-gun match with a currently-used rulebook. There are several people who are looking at getting into 3-gun/multigun and want to use rules they'd actually encounter at a major match like the CMMG Midwest 3-gun or the Area 3 Multigun or the Ozark 3-gun. This means we'd have to pick a ruleset and stick with it for these types of matches, for consistency's sake.

My main issue is that there are existing rules and we should look at playing by them. I think there's a huge void for folks who want to get into 3-gun/multigun (I know of two or three personally), but don't want to spend large dollars to shoot major matches when they'll probably get their backsides kicked while learning the game. I wasn't sure there was a way to do that without alienating the folks who just want to shoot the matches for fun.

I'm happy to say I was wrong about that. There are ways to integrate into the existing 3-gun or multigun organizations while still leaving the door open for other people to play as they like with the stuff they already have.

That's all.

[frag316]

I just wanted to post in a thread with the word "Shenanigans" in the title! The rules for most three gun matches are not all that hard to understand, and I can't remember any of them that say you can't use a five shot revolver and reload it, or a two shot shotgun for that matter. Let em play till the par time and score the targets as they are. Seems simple to me. As long as everyone plays safe, I think that people should be able to shoot whatever they like.

I agree.

"Shenanigans" is a hold-over from my unit in Iraq. We had an NCO there who used the word constantly.

[tbarker13]

Wasn't able to be there last weekend. And really, I just don't have a ton of interest in 3-gun.

But I, personally, thought it was cool that Mose tried to included the various disciplines. As long as it can be done in a way that's safe and without adding a lot of extra time to complete the stages, I'd say go for it.

I love the idea of seeing guys with ARs and 2011s shooting in the same place as guys with six-guns and lever actions.

[Chills1994]

Logistically, since I have actually been there and done that last year trying to cater to the CAS crowd, desiging stages that at a max incorporate a total of 10 pistol rounds is a huge PITA.

Rulewise, in an ideal world, they would be published somewhere before the match.

Just because "it's only for fun"... Fun for me would go right out the window the first time I got swept by somebody's muzzle.

Ideally, there would be rules and penalties in place well before the match for say breaking the 170/180/200, etc.

[bdpaz]

Logistically, since I have actually been there and done that last year trying to cater to the CAS crowd, desiging stages that at a max incorporate a total of 10 pistol rounds is a huge PITA.

Rulewise, in an ideal world, they would be published somewhere before the match.

Just because "it's only for fun"... Fun for me would go right out the window the first time I got swept by somebody's muzzle.

Ideally, there would be rules and penalties in place well before the match for say breaking the 170/180/200, etc.

Huh?

From the posts by people who were there or talked to shooters who were there, it worked well so why say it won't work?

And how does allowing Cowboy shooters in the match affect the safety rules?

If you have first hand knowledge of problems (that no one else in this thread has mentioned) please give specifics and explain how these missing rules are related to allowing CAS folks in the match. I don't know anything about this match or have any connection to it but your comments seem a little odd.

[Overwatcher]

All good stuff.

Bottom line is to promote shooting sports as a whole, and bring shooting skills up from all disciplines.

Nothing worse then the "zombie killers" in the next bay over with all the tacticool gear shooting all the club target stands and

using unsafe gun practices.

I think we should all cater anyone who has interest in wanting to shoot the right way.

Just another angle at it.

[Chills1994]

ASSuming you are a USPSA'er and you show up to some match, any match, "just a fun match", anywhere in the world, and you were in the peanut gallery, and during some shooter's attempt at the CoF, you got swept by their muzzle, you would probably be a little freaked out by it and would be wondering why the guy isn't getting DQ'ed. So you go up to the RO/MD/RM and ask, "why isn't he getting DQ'ed?"

And the reply is "we have a 210 rule, didn't you know that?"

You would probably be wondering where these rules are published, right?

That's just a hypothetical situation that I hope illustrates my point.

I was MD at that location for oh... About a year and three months. I put on one whole outlaw 3 gun match. At Mose's urging, I catered my stage designs to the CAS'ers. They have two six shooters on their belts. Each gun must have its hammer down on an empty chamber. So 2 guns times 5 rounds each equals 10 pistol rounds max. IIRC, their lever guns also hold a max of 10 rounds.

So where does that leave any stage design creativity that which fosters the cornerstone of USPSA... FREESTYLE... when each stage is limited to 10 rounds rifle and 10 rounds pistol, especially when you have open guys with their Saiga's, beta mag fed AR's, and 28 round big stick open pistol mags.

I only had one CAS'er show up to that match by the way, After I made every stage cowboy friendly.

[LikesToShoot]

Four of the six people that shot the match were mainly "cowboy" shooters, two chose to shoot in "open" using AR's and semi auto pistols. There were no mandatory reloads on the clock for "Cowboy" division. They just put one shot on the rifle targets and one shot on the pistol targets. IIRC, all of the four stages had 8 shotgun and 18-20 rounds each for rifle and pistol. "Cowboys" halved the rifle/pistol portion. One guy started with a Colt 1911 then quickly changed over to twin revolvers for the other three stages. (The factory front sight on that Colt was very small). Those cowboy carts hold a LOT of gear.

I seen no problems, didn't feel unsafe, and had very enjoyable time.

Kent, I can understand wanting some rules that can apply to other events. We just modified them up at the start because I don't think we had anything to refer to. Whatever sounded reasonable we agreed to and ran with it. We're lucky we only had one squad and were able to make these changes. On the other hand Mose and Bella worked their tails off building four fun stages for only six to enjoy. (temps that week were 106ish, Thanks again Mose and Bella)

When I showed up I told Mose that my sling shot broke a rubber band and I was going to use my spud gun instead.

Without hesitation he replied that I could shoot in the "non-lethal" division.

I came to Enos to look for some rules and I find that there's an ongoing debate on this subject alone. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=136292

Maybe you and Mose could talk things over and hopefully come up with something that'll work for you.

See ya at the range.

[waynes_world_45]

I just wanted to post in a thread with the word "Shenanigans" in the title! The rules for most three gun matches are not all that hard to understand, and I can't remember any of them that say you can't use a five shot revolver and reload it, or a two shot shotgun for that matter. Let em play till the par time and score the targets as they are. Seems simple to me. As long as everyone plays safe, I think that people should be able to shoot whatever they like.

I agree.

"Shenanigans" is a hold-over from my unit in Iraq. We had an NCO there who used the word constantly.

I prefer Tomfoolery....Hijinx is good too

[ClutchUSMC]

I would love another 3gun match in driving distance. But it's not worth my time or money to shoot at 10 target minimums on every stage. Whats the point?

Part of the fun of 3gun is making you figure out a challenge, not just go bang bang bang. I think that is part of what chills is saying. At the end of the day any match is good for us. I applaud Mose for trying to be an MD with his limited experience in the 3gun arena. But if your goal is to introduce people to 3gun I think you should really do that, and not have a "just of fun" cowboy match with ar15s.

[frag316]

Four of the six people that shot the match were mainly "cowboy" shooters, two chose to shoot in "open" using AR's and semi auto pistols. There were no mandatory reloads on the clock for "Cowboy" division. They just put one shot on the rifle targets and one shot on the pistol targets. IIRC, all of the four stages had 8 shotgun and 18-20 rounds each for rifle and pistol. "Cowboys" halved the rifle/pistol portion. One guy started with a Colt 1911 then quickly changed over to twin revolvers for the other three stages. (The factory front sight on that Colt was very small). Those cowboy carts hold a LOT of gear.

I seen no problems, didn't feel unsafe, and had very enjoyable time.

Kent, I can understand wanting some rules that can apply to other events. We just modified them up at the start because I don't think we had anything to refer to. Whatever sounded reasonable we agreed to and ran with it. We're lucky we only had one squad and were able to make these changes. On the other hand Mose and Bella worked their tails off building four fun stages for only six to enjoy. (temps that week were 106ish, Thanks again Mose and Bella)

When I showed up I told Mose that my sling shot broke a rubber band and I was going to use my spud gun instead.

Without hesitation he replied that I could shoot in the "non-lethal" division.

I came to Enos to look for some rules and I find that there's an ongoing debate on this subject alone. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=136292

Maybe you and Mose could talk things over and hopefully come up with something that'll work for you.

See ya at the range.

Steve,

No, I get that. That's why I say we should pick one ruleset and go with it. I'd personally rather use USPSA time-plus only, but that's me. If people want to use IMGA, we can go with that. (The two are actually more similar now that USPSA allows time-plus.) What I wouldn't want to see is Horner scoring (which I can't get anyone to explain to me), USPSA major/minor with hit factor, or IDPA-type scoring (time-plus with points down). If we build target arrays suitable for a true 3-/multigun match and let the CAS guys use a separate stage description, I'm fine with that. I would argue, however, that since Mose is the USPSA MD for the club, we should use USPSA rules for real/formal multigun club matches.

As I said before (and may not have said well)--My intent was to find out whether there was a way to start up a formal 3-/multigun club match with the expressed intent of the MD to allow cowboy shooters to participate. I didn't see how it would work for USPSA, because they're violating Rule 5.1.9 by wearing two handguns (DQable offense). I asked John Amidon about including other folks in a USPSA-linked/-sanctioned/-whatever you want to call it match, and he told me they could shoot it with no problem (as long as the MD and ROs were comfortable with it), but their scores wouldn't be reported to USPSA. The shooters would also be under USPSA rules, so the 180 applies, not whatever the rule is for SASS (I've never shot a SASS match, so I don't know what their rules are or if they really do have a 210 rule).

Oh, there actually was something to refer to--the USPSA website (Mose is the USPSA MD, after all) has a set of multigun rules under the "Rules" tab. Additionally, the multigun rules are undergoing revision right now, and there's a link for them on the splash page of the USPSA website and a discussion thread on them here on BENOS. There's been something to refer to for over a year now. However, I recognize the plan to put on the match was very last minute, so it probably would have been impossible to be conversant with the rules in the three or four days Mose had between announcing the match and pulling it off (never mind the time put in designing and actually building stages . . . .), so working out a simple alternative was probably a better option FOR THAT ONE MATCH.

I think (especially since Mose is the USPSA MD) that for any future matches, we should use the USPSA multigun rules, using time-plus scoring. We have the time to work out the kinks and design stages to put on matches in September and October in prep for the Area 3 Multigun in Rolla in November. Just a thought.

I would love another 3gun match in driving distance. But it's not worth my time or money to shoot at 10 target minimums on every stage. Whats the point?

Part of the fun of 3gun is making you figure out a challenge, not just go bang bang bang. I think that is part of what chills is saying. At the end of the day any match is good for us. I applaud Mose for trying to be an MD with his limited experience in the 3gun arena. But if your goal is to introduce people to 3gun I think you should really do that, and not have a "just of fun" cowboy match with ar15s.

Clutch,

I agree, and that's really my point--I'd like to see an actual 3-gun/multigun match at this club. If we need to be all-inclusive, we should build the target arrays for the 3-gun/multigun crowd and then write a separate stage description for the cowboy folks. We should NOT build stages that handicap the 3-gun/multigun shooters so they're round count neutral for the cowboy guys.

[ClutchUSMC]

One more question, If Mose has so little experience in USPSA and 3gun... Who made him the MD? And why?

Not that he can't/won't do a good job but it's kind of like making a guy a crew chief in nascar because he has a horse racing background.

It seems silly to me to ask a guy to be MD of something he has so little experience with. 3gun you might get by with as it is similar to CAS but the USPSA guys are gonna beat the crap out of you on stage design, rules, etc. All it takes is one butt hurt range lawyer who post online or complains to HQ about the rules not being followed. Seems like the range is risking it's ability to even hold USPSA matches.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Just set the steel heavy and far away. That will get rid of the Rimfire and SASS guys real quick!!!

[02Fatboy]

Hey Gang thanks for all the response.

As you probably know I am the match director for said event and I think we all had a lot of fun.

My main goal at any event I try to do it to PROMOTE SHOOTING SPORTS AND OUR RIGHT TO USE OUR GUNS!!!

That said although I am very new to USPSA,IDPA, and modern multigun sports. I am not new to shooting sports and I am not just talking cowboy action.

I believe any time we can put people on the range is a good time.

I have heard many wishes for a multi-gun activity here at The World Shooting Complex. Our schedule is very full and when we had a cancelation I thought I would throw something together. My initial thought was have an organizational meeting, see who was really interested , see who could volunteer, blah blah blah. My second though was hey just put a few stages together and play first then build around that. So I went with the second option.

I am aware that I do not know enough about this game yet! to host a competent sanctioned match.

I really honestly do not see what the big deal is, for some one to shoot what ever they own on the same targets as any one else, as long as they are not scored against each other and do not impede the progress of the match.,

Really who cares if the guy behind you is putting with a driver or driving with a pitching wedge as long as he does not bother you.

This particular range has the interest and support to hold a second monthly Cowboy Action Match but I would like to see that range time go to developing another shooting venue. (the cowboy will be more profitable and a lot easier honestly)

I have personally enjoyed the modern action shooting sports a lot lately and invested thousands of my own dollars purchasing the equipment to attempt to learn the game(s) correctly. I hope this will enable me to put together better events for you the modern action shooter.

One of the best things about the World Shooting Complex is that it is not privately owned but rather state owned , that means any one who has the knowledge to run a shooting sport can make arrangements with the state to rent the facility and host their own event .

I will even be available to assist you with what ever we can do to help make your event a great one.

Please feel free to contact me with any questions you may have about the World Shooting Complex or any events we are having or any of the questions you may have about what gets aired on the internet as I will NEVER get involved in such a discussion on line.

Mose Spencer

270-349-4392 cell

mosespencer@yahoo.com

[02Fatboy]

Mose,

Keep your head up hi and keep running the match. I think it is great to get new shooters in any sport.

[Chills1994]

Just set the steel heavy and far away. That will get rid of the Rimfire and SASS guys real quick!!!

The match director (aka the guy who sets the stages) is the CAS'er guy.

[LikesToShoot]

One more question, If Mose has so little experience in USPSA and 3gun... Who made him the MD? And why?

Not that he can't/won't do a good job but it's kind of like making a guy a crew chief in nascar because he has a horse racing background.

It seems silly to me to ask a guy to be MD of something he has so little experience with. 3gun you might get by with as it is similar to CAS but the USPSA guys are gonna beat the crap out of you on stage design, rules, etc. All it takes is one butt hurt range lawyer who post online or complains to HQ about the rules not being followed. Seems like the range is risking it's ability to even hold USPSA matches.

I could be wrong but I think Mose has more to do with promoting World Shooting and Recreational Complex in Sparta.

http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/recreation/wsrc/Pages/default.aspx

I first met him at the NRA show and he was not in the USPSA booth but was in the World Shooting and Recreational booth

I think he seen an open date for that weekend and thru this match together rear quick.

IIRC, David Bianchini is the USPSA MD for Sparta.

Time plus 5 sec for every missed shot, no FTN, no FTE, no minor/major or any other BS made it easy and fun.

KISS worked well for a "fun match".

Personally I hate hit factor, percentages and all the other junk.

I'm out the rule debate, all I want to do is shoot.

[ClutchUSMC]

One more question, If Mose has so little experience in USPSA and 3gun... Who made him the MD? And why?

Not that he can't/won't do a good job but it's kind of like making a guy a crew chief in nascar because he has a horse racing background.

It seems silly to me to ask a guy to be MD of something he has so little experience with. 3gun you might get by with as it is similar to CAS but the USPSA guys are gonna beat the crap out of you on stage design, rules, etc. All it takes is one butt hurt range lawyer who post online or complains to HQ about the rules not being followed. Seems like the range is risking it's ability to even hold USPSA matches.

I could be wrong but I think Mose has more to do with promoting World Shooting and Recreational Complex in Sparta.

http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/recreation/wsrc/Pages/default.aspx

I first met him at the NRA show and he was not in the USPSA booth but was in the World Shooting and Recreational booth

I think he seen an open date for that weekend and thru this match together rear quick.

IIRC, David Bianchini is the USPSA MD for Sparta.

Time plus 5 sec for every missed shot, no FTN, no FTE, no minor/major or any other BS made it easy and fun.

KISS worked well for a "fun match".

Personally I hate hit factor, percentages and all the other junk.

I'm out the rule debate, all I want to do is shoot.

I'm not trying to knock the guy at all. In fact I went to school with his son and consider him a friend. I have heard great things about his cowboy matches and really do applaud him for stepping up to something he is unfamiliar with.

Also, as someone who runs a monthly 3gun match I know the hassles and headaches that come along. I know how much work it really is and I know how much time it takes. I do NOT think I am qualified in any way to run a CAS match. I would let guys with cowboy guns shoot my match, I'd even let them shoot both pistols if they did it safely. But I would never in a million years think its a good idea for me to be running their show.

As much as it hurts me to say it, if they really want to promote their range then they are going to have to put on a match that 3gunners want to come too. I hear the CAS shooting up there has already taken off. If you want more of that then run another monthly cowboy match and forget about 3gun. That facility could accommodate one of the biggest and best club matches in the country, but it's never going to happen unless you give shooters what they want. They guys who will drive 2-3 hours 1 way to a club match don't want to "play". We want a match that is challenging, fun, and competitive. I'm no 3GN pro ninja but I win my share of club matches, if there aren't people there pushing me to shoot better and raising the bar I won't continue to show up. I think that most shooters feel that way if they are battling for 1st or 10th or whatever level they are at.

None of that last paragraph was directed at the current MD. Mose, if you need any help I am more than willing to come up and RO, help design stages, just be a sounding board for ideas, whatever you need. Like I said I'm not 3GN pro or master MD but I have learned a lot in the last year or so of running a monthly 3gun match. I am more than happy to help you anyway I can, and I'm just up the road in Paducah.

[Lead-Head]

Maybe Mose the MD should listen to what his shooters want, come up with rules that are safe but inclusive, and never read another forum post as long as he continues to get interested parties to come out ond shoot (they are seldom constructive when it comes to issues regarding rules anyway).

Just a thought.

[LikesToShoot]

One more question, If Mose has so little experience in USPSA and 3gun... Who made him the MD? And why?

Not that he can't/won't do a good job but it's kind of like making a guy a crew chief in nascar because he has a horse racing background.

It seems silly to me to ask a guy to be MD of something he has so little experience with. 3gun you might get by with as it is similar to CAS but the USPSA guys are gonna beat the crap out of you on stage design, rules, etc. All it takes is one butt hurt range lawyer who post online or complains to HQ about the rules not being followed. Seems like the range is risking it's ability to even hold USPSA matches.

I could be wrong but I think Mose has more to do with promoting World Shooting and Recreational Complex in Sparta.

http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/recreation/wsrc/Pages/default.aspx

I first met him at the NRA show and he was not in the USPSA booth but was in the World Shooting and Recreational booth

I think he seen an open date for that weekend and thru this match together rear quick.

IIRC, David Bianchini is the USPSA MD for Sparta.

Time plus 5 sec for every missed shot, no FTN, no FTE, no minor/major or any other BS made it easy and fun.

KISS worked well for a "fun match".

Personally I hate hit factor, percentages and all the other junk.

I'm out the rule debate, all I want to do is shoot.

I'm not trying to knock the guy at all. In fact I went to school with his son and consider him a friend. I have heard great things about his cowboy matches and really do applaud him for stepping up to something he is unfamiliar with.

Also, as someone who runs a monthly 3gun match I know the hassles and headaches that come along. I know how much work it really is and I know how much time it takes. I do NOT think I am qualified in any way to run a CAS match. I would let guys with cowboy guns shoot my match, I'd even let them shoot both pistols if they did it safely. But I would never in a million years think its a good idea for me to be running their show.

As much as it hurts me to say it, if they really want to promote their range then they are going to have to put on a match that 3gunners want to come too. I hear the CAS shooting up there has already taken off. If you want more of that then run another monthly cowboy match and forget about 3gun. That facility could accommodate one of the biggest and best club matches in the country, but it's never going to happen unless you give shooters what they want. They guys who will drive 2-3 hours 1 way to a club match don't want to "play". We want a match that is challenging, fun, and competitive. I'm no 3GN pro ninja but I win my share of club matches, if there aren't people there pushing me to shoot better and raising the bar I won't continue to show up. I think that most shooters feel that way if they are battling for 1st or 10th or whatever level they are at.

None of that last paragraph was directed at the current MD. Mose, if you need any help I am more than willing to come up and RO, help design stages, just be a sounding board for ideas, whatever you need. Like I said I'm not 3GN pro or master MD but I have learned a lot in the last year or so of running a monthly 3gun match. I am more than happy to help you anyway I can, and I'm just up the road in Paducah.

What are the average rifle shots at your matches?

Where this last minute "3 gun" match was in the "Cowboy Town" at the WSRC. Most shots are 20 to 30 yards and maybe 40 yards diagonally across the bay.

Here's a video from Sparta's first IL. State IDPA match.

IIRC, They hope to get 100, 200 plus bays in the future but for right now this is the playing field.

So we should be "Convincing the local USPSA MD that not everyone can play " and be "...trying to get the club to run multi gun matches there using either IMGA or USPSA multigun rules."

Folks, this is a pick up game of three gun on small play ground fields for locals to come play.

Sure, when there are long ranges to bring in the out State competitors it'll be a different story and that's a LONG time away. But when that happens I'll be happy to nominate and vote for Kent to be on the panel to make sure things running right.

This is the home of the Grand American.

"The WSRC has the longest trap line in the world with 120 trap fields outfitted with a voice activated release system extending over 3.5 miles. Twenty-four are combination trap/skeet fields with 16 of those fields equipped with lights for shooting after dark. The WSRC is the home grounds for the Amateur Trapshooting Association’s Grand American Trapshooting Championships."

Yes I do expect and hope to the rifle ranges to grow but I don't see "real 3-gun" in the "Cowboy Town".

If you zoom in on this map, go to the far left of the trap fields and and down below you will find the twelve pistol bays. I believe from roadside edge of the two tables on each side of the bay in front of the wooden cowboy town props the distance to the backstop is 34 yards.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=101695290727397104311.00045e6974518c3efe97a&ll=38.196775,-89.730148&spn=0.067184,0.109863&t=h&z=13

They hold USPSA and IDPA matches in these same bays and everything works well.