benos Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 If you pay total attention to everything you need to pay attention to, to shoot the stage error-free, it will not be possible to think about anything at all. Like Steve said, you will just be watching a movie. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sendit223 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Sendit... I know you're joking, but that's incredibly damaging to your self image and therefore your shooting in general. Self-deprecation is good for comedy, not for shooting. Nope, not joking. I am realistic about my abilities, though certainly not leveraging positive self talk while under stress of malfunctions during a 3 gun stage. I know my strengths. My self image is intact, regardless of how I shot a particular stage. I hear you if your point is to remain positive at all times. My skill at remaining positive and focused while practicing skills necessary for 3 gun are under development. While related to positive self talk I see that as separate and distinct from self image. My pistol shooting needs work. I have not put in the time, and I understand the concept of 10,000 hours in a very direct and personal way having deployed it elsewhere. Proficiency will come, and I cannot predict when. I welcome it however, and know it can arrive any time. Regardless, as yet I cannot snatch the pebble from the hand of Master Po. The good news is that I am one day closer. Weedhoppa ps - thanks for the perspective Mr. Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I see a pattern on the "amount" and "type" of thinking being described here and at the range. I think it's a matter of how much "aligning the gun with the target and making it go bang" is in the subconscious. The goal is clear but; there are different types of thoughts that we need in our head as we progress. We're dealing with transferring non-instinctual, non-natural behavior to the subconscious. For me in the beginning it was, "sight picture, trigger press". Very fundamental and mechanical thoughts. Now, I'm somewhere between "find target and put holes in it" and "reload...reload". More thoughts on mechanics of shooting. Every once in a while "pick up a gallon of milk on the way home" sneaks in. B.S. thoughts. Thoughts I'm trying to get into my head. Stay wide on the corner, popper-static-swinger, extra round in that target. Thoughts on the plan and and reducing time. Thoughts I wish I had in my head. Nothingness, the oneness of the universe, non-self, mu. Enlightened state of flow. "Pushing out thoughts doesn't work, FOCUSING on the task and only on the task works." Is the thought that is working for me right now... DNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 "Pushing out thoughts doesn't work, FOCUSING on the task and only on the task works." Is the thought that is working for me right now... DNH Immediately after reading that, the following sentence came to mind. At all times, be fully aware of what is happening. Then I shortened it to: Always be fully aware of what is happening. Then down to: Always know what is happening. Being fully aware, or knowing what is happening, includes everything. If you are doing an activity, be sensitive and alive to it. Allow it to be all that is happening. When you notice that you are thinking about a specific topic, note how in that second of becoming aware of the thought topic, thinking stopped. That pause then leaves you free to make an intelligent decision - whether or not you should continue thinking on that topic. These days I do my best to leave thinking for things I am actually going to do. Like making a grocery list, for example. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 "Flubbed the draw-- find the front post. A, A, A, C, A, A, Hoper-- make up, A, C. MOVE/mag change-- there's a scuff on my magwell... Missed that spot damn it-- A, A, A, C, A, C, Hit Popper, Hit Popper. MOVE/mag change-- yep, still a scuff... A, A-- sights not tracking right. A, C, C, D-- make up. Hit Popper, Hit Lollipop. MOVE/mag change-- gotta smooth that scuff out... CRAP, overran it-- PPR time. 2, 3, 4, 1; 2, 3, crap, missed 3, 4, 3, 1-1-1... Damn it, 1-- slide lock reload, *1*!!!!!!!" I lose the block between my tongue and my brain when I shoot; my subconscious just talks. I've had RO's tell me that I narrated 60% of a run to them, yet I have almost no recollection of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38SuperDub Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Damn Bo - when did you start getting all those Alphas?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Damn Bo - when did you start getting all those Alphas?!?! In my mind, silly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 what goes on in your mind while you are shooting a stage? All kinds of things: I'm slow, where is the front sight, I need to lose weight, did anyone see that, that target ducked, I should be drinking more, did that pick-up shot help or hurt, that was a really good shot, etc. Then I have 4 stages TOTAL that I can't remember much (if anything) about and those stages are my highest percentages in major matches, all over 80%. One, I was so distracted by other issues and I was so glad to be shooting instead of dealing with idiots, it just flowed out, like a vacation. Another was a blind stage and the other two, I really can't even tell you that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I think it's interesting... Sometimes doing well is just as distracting as doing poorly... Perhaps how well we're doing should be the first thing we don't let into our minds? DNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I think it's interesting... Sometimes doing well is just as distracting as doing poorly... Perhaps how well we're doing should be the first thing we don't let into our minds? DNH Yes, if you are truly immersed in the activity, your mind won't have the space to be judging. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) Yes, if you are truly immersed in the activity, your mind won't have the space to be judging. be I for once in a billion years may have to contest this one, Brian... I would say it depends on how fast your mind works. Let's say you're shooting something ridiculously fast for your average 2nd shot split-- .18 seconds. How much of that time frame is spent by the brain? We know the gun returns to battery (the sights stop mechanically moving) very quickly. I think it's safe to say that the bulk of that time is spent letting the gun return and the sights to acceptably settle. And early on in that process, we are calling the shot... Let's say that generously gives us .12 seconds before the sights tell us "it's time to break the next shot", and for our finger to get it done. (That is, you call the shot in the first .04-.05 seconds.) That's a TON of "dead time" for your brain to tell you something else-- and then return fully to the task at hand. Now imagine we're transitioning between targets, at a blistering .25-- or a big swing, at an impressive .35. How about conducting a standing speed shoot reload, at a smoking 1.1 (for a Production gun). Or moving to a new spot, 1.8 seconds away? I would humbly contend that the REAL problem is that our mind latches on to that assessment-- especially when it's "I'm screwing this stage up"-- and fails/refuses to let go and return to the immersion we need. As you call your 3rd Delta in an array, and make it up, it might occur to you that you've shot an awful lot of crappy points and wasted an awful lot of time picking them up... But if you instantly go back to driving the gun to the next target, and calling those two shots, is that such a problem? Instead, being human, we're probably more inclined to sling two shots while we linger on our "predicament"-- and then TRY to hurry up and "make up for" it. (The two most deadly sins, of course...) I would count that type of assessment (not the continued mental attachment to it) basically the same as some of the observations you talk about in your book-- seeing brass leave the gun, noticing the sights perfectly "snap shotted" on the targets in low light, watching your wrists angle the gun towards the next target, etc. It's just another observation, so long as you're an honest person with yourself. "I suck" isn't judging if I really DO suck. Edited August 21, 2012 by Sin-ster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) Yes, if you are truly immersed in the activity, your mind won't have the space to be judging. be I would humbly contend that the REAL problem is that our mind latches on to that assessment-- especially when it's "I'm screwing this stage up"-- and fails/refuses to let go and return to the immersion we need. As you call your 3rd Delta in an array, and make it up, it might occur to you that you've shot an awful lot of crappy points and wasted an awful lot of time picking them up... But if you instantly go back to driving the gun to the next target, and calling those two shots, is that such a problem? Mister Ster, I think you've described the REAL problem nicely! Sometimes it takes me weeks to go back to driving the gun, and calling those two shots... Lately it takes me 5 to 6 stages of a practice match before my mind "unlatches" and "it" starts shooting. Then I get immersed into the activity once again. DNH Edited August 21, 2012 by daves_not_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Let's say that generously gives us .12 seconds before the sights tell us "it's time to break the next shot", and for our finger to get it done. (That is, you call the shot in the first .04-.05 seconds.) That's a TON of "dead time" for your brain to tell you something else-- and then return fully to the task at hand. From my experience when mind and body were one with the activity, there is no "dead time." A neverending stream of observation was all that was "witnessed." Now imagine we're transitioning between targets, at a blistering .25-- or a big swing, at an impressive .35. How about conducting a standing speed shoot reload, at a smoking 1.1 (for a Production gun). Or moving to a new spot, 1.8 seconds away? I would humbly contend that the REAL problem is that our mind latches on to that assessment-- especially when it's "I'm screwing this stage up"-- and fails/refuses to let go and return to the immersion we need. In that state, mind and body were not one with the activity. It's extremely difficult to return to the immersion state (during the same stage) once you have become separated. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Nope, not joking. I am realistic about my abilities,... No your not. Steve knows that. That is why he is holding you to task. If you are gonna BS yourself...at least do it positively. Your abilities far outweigh your present state of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 From my experience when mind and body were one with the activity, there is no "dead time." A neverending stream of observation was all that was "witnessed." Ah, but does "that's a lot of make ups" count as anything other than an observation? You mean just visual observation, and not necessarily the next level of mental calculation about it, I believe. In which case I can't argue-- I don't think I've ever reached that level of Zen for more than an array or two, AT MOST. And then only because there was nothing "wonky" to observe/assess... It's extremely difficult to return to the immersion state (during the same stage) once you have become separated.be In that regard, we absolutely agree-- I believe the most natural thing for the vast majority of shooters is to stay in that "assessment" state and even respond to it (through action), as opposed to just going back to watching the shooting. That said, I have absolutely called every shot in a (recent) Classifier (100%, the ugly way) and had "thoughts" invading my head in the process. That was only 10 shots and a mag change, standing-- on a Field Course, I can't recall it happening so vividly, if at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 From my experience when mind and body were one with the activity, there is no "dead time." A neverending stream of observation was all that was "witnessed." Ah, but does "that's a lot of make ups" count as anything other than an observation? Does it count as anything other than a judgment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Geez, look at that butterfly, the sky is a pretty shade of blue today. Holy shit, did I just hit a no shoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 From my experience when mind and body were one with the activity, there is no "dead time." A neverending stream of observation was all that was "witnessed." Ah, but does "that's a lot of make ups" count as anything other than an observation? I think we are just saying two completely different things. When mind, body, and activity are one, there will not be "a lot of make ups" to observe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daves_not_here Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I'd like to make a comment about observation and judgement. We OBSERVE things. That cannot stop since it is a condition of awareness. Our egos JUDGE the input in an attempt PERCEIVE our world. Creating THOUGHTS. Was that a bad shot or is the target in the wrong place? What we DECIDE to do with those thoughts. I'm not shooting well today so I give up (often followed by a good match) We can IGNORE or ACT. We ignore a lot of things in our world. I like to drive this way, oblivious of everything The things we decide to act on and how we act is the key. Ignoring is not the same as deciding not to take action. Deciding to not take that makeup shot is not the same as ignoring the shot that missed. Giving in and following your subconscious training from all your practice is a very deliberate act and takes effort. If one gives in to the technique that has become a part of one's blood there is no marking of time. The brain will be fully immersed in the technique thoughts of time passing will not be created. The trigger is pulled even before the perception of a "bad shot" is made. Ingrained reflex pulls the trigger again. I think most of us have had moments of the immersed condition with the mind and body as one...For me it's where stuff just happens and if I was asked at that moment I would say, What body? What Mind? Getting good shooting ingrained in my subconscious is a different matter. I hope this adds something to this thread, DNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I'd like to address what happens in the event of a "mistake" which in this case would be a poorly executed part of a stage. Ideally, there would be no judgement as the subconscious mind drives the body to return to the movie. Think about what happens when an average club shooter makes an error. He'll make a big scene because he wants everyone to know that HE knows he F@#ked up, and that he doesn't normally shoot like that. (It's an ego thing) A champion will calmly correct the mistake and proceed as planned. I've been on both of sides of this, and it always has to do with the current state of my three Bassham circles. I do have a sensitive ego, like everyone else, and I often feel outside pressure to do well. (This is imaginary, but doesn't mean it isn't real) So, acknowledging an error isn't necessarily judgement. I think that's what I was trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 From my experience when mind and body were one with the activity, there is no "dead time." A neverending stream of observation was all that was "witnessed." Ah, but does "that's a lot of make ups" count as anything other than an observation? I think we are just saying two completely different things. When mind, body, and activity are one, there will not be "a lot of make ups" to observe. You're just a better shooter than me! Or maybe I've got the mind and activity wired, but not the body... I dunno, that's a tough call to make. If someone doesn't have all of the fundamentals wired in, are they not capable of full immersion-- including same-split make ups when necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangclang Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Im only 4have matches in this game and have figured out that if I have time to think while im shooting I could go faster.If I can shoot on auto pilot and make small corrections as I go that's when I'll shoot my best.I quit worrying about mistakes that just makes things worse. A mistake is like eating spaghetti and dropping off a meatball ,it happens.If you drop half of them then its technique and you need to work on it.Im still working on everything! The only thing I have figured out is my draw. I found that hands relaxed at sides is just a position. Hands are relaxed at sides but muscles are tight. Its faster to get to top speed if you're wound tight before the beep instead of after it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Hands are relaxed at sides but muscles are tight. Its faster to get to top speed if you're wound tight before the beep instead of after it. There are a mountain of guys with WAY sub-1 draws that would disagree with you there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangclang Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Sorry should have worded that better, with a what works best for me.I took the approach of a Olympic runner tight and ready for the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sti38super Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Targets are the same as when I am practicing. Focus Shot A's Focus Fast is Smooth Focus No Mistakes Focus Load and Make Ready Edited October 2, 2012 by sti38super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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