steviesterno Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Hey all, After shooting a few years of 3 gun with a slowly tuned stag carbine, I think It might not be giving me the chance to do my best. Started as a whatever patrol rifle(16" barrel with carbine gas), but now has a free float tube, stock I like (UBR), timney trigger and a comp. It's also sporting a JP brake and trijicon accupoint 1-4x in a burris mount. It's come to my attention that I might need to make 1-2moa shots at distance, and I don't know if the rifle set up can do it. I don't have a pile of money, so to switch to a 1-6 scope I'd have to sell mine and another gun and hope for the best. However, I just got a good chance to buy a like new 18" JP medium contour barrel with adjustable gas black, comp, and rifle gas system at a really good price. I guess I'm wondering if it's worth it to upgrade the barrel without changing the scope or anything else. Will the rifle length and adjustable gas really help recoil management and speed splits? Will this better barrel help me get into the area where I want to be, accuracy wise? As a note, I don't load 223, and really don't want to. I will run match grade stuff though if that helps. Short stuff, I will still shoot 55gn Hornady or federal cheap stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 What size groups is it shooting now? That should be the determining factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) Hey all, After shooting a few years of 3 gun with a slowly tuned stag carbine, I think It might not be giving me the chance to do my best. Started as a whatever patrol rifle(16" barrel with carbine gas), but now has a free float tube, stock I like (UBR), timney trigger and a comp. It's also sporting a JP brake and trijicon accupoint 1-4x in a burris mount. It's come to my attention that I might need to make 1-2moa shots at distance, and I don't know if the rifle set up can do it. I don't have a pile of money, so to switch to a 1-6 scope I'd have to sell mine and another gun and hope for the best. However, I just got a good chance to buy a like new 18" JP medium contour barrel with adjustable gas black, comp, and rifle gas system at a really good price. I guess I'm wondering if it's worth it to upgrade the barrel without changing the scope or anything else. Will the rifle length and adjustable gas really help recoil management and speed splits? Will this better barrel help me get into the area where I want to be, accuracy wise? As a note, I don't load 223, and really don't want to. I will run match grade stuff though if that helps. Short stuff, I will still shoot 55gn Hornady or federal cheap stuff. Don't think the JP stuff will help at all. Mater of fact, I think your getting ripped off and if you give me the name and phone number of the person who is trying to unload that junk on you, I'll call'em and give'em a real talking to. But on a serious note, when I thought I was having trouble with my Mini-14 I took it to where I could bench rest it at 100yds. This took me pretty much out of the equation and let me see how the gun, not the shooter was grouping. I'd think bench might be a good place to start if you haven't done it already. I don't see how you could ever go wrong with the JP barrel, and if it were at a good price on top of it, I'd jump on it in a heart beat. A scope can always come later, but a good deal on a JP barrel won't come around that often I'd think. Oh, the Mini... I wasn't scoring well, suddenly, in carbine matches after starting quite well. This was just after having a muzzle brake put on it, which really helped the gun stay on target compared to the original configuration. Well, it couldn't hit the paper bench rested at 100 yards, so I brought it in to 50'. Was shooting a 1 foot random pattern! No wonder my scores dropped off. Turned out that there were several problems with the way the muzzle brake had been put on. Tar Edited May 23, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 I have never actually super duper tied it down and benched it. I was getting about 2" groups at 50 yards on a good day, and probably 5" from shooting over a rolled up range bag at 100. Not proper procedures, I know, but still. I'm also thinking the rifle length gas will make a huge difference in recoil. Is that true or am I mistaken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I have never actually super duper tied it down and benched it. I was getting about 2" groups at 50 yards on a good day, and probably 5" from shooting over a rolled up range bag at 100. Not proper procedures, I know, but still. I'm also thinking the rifle length gas will make a huge difference in recoil. Is that true or am I mistaken? Rifle length system will be softer and smoother. You don't need a fancy rest, just one that's stable. The rolled up range bag probably isn't stable enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 You didn't give a ton of decision making information. At what distance do you have to make 1moa shots? 1moa targets at 100yds can be made with what you've got and some practice. At 300yds, I would expect even match ammo to start opening up beyond your requirments, from a patrol type carbine. In general, I would say that a 16" patrol style carbine is considered a 2moa rifle. If you want to get into sub-moa accuracy, you will more than likely need a better barrel. JPs are amongst the best out there and an 18" will be sub-moa out to 400 and probably beyond (with the right ammo). The rifle length, adjustable gas system does indeed help with recoil management as does the medium profile. It's not a comfort thing, but rather how far out can you hammer targets and how fast can you get back on target. A really well set up, competition AR can hammer full sized USPSA targets out to 50yds without too much effort. The TR-24 scope is capable of tight accuracy, but you have to be willing to dial for the longer shots. I got tired of dialing, and ultimately had to move on to something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 hmm, well lets answer your thoughts C0-exprs... I have to be able to hit 8" plates at 400 yards, but most of the stuff will be inside 100 yards. I'm willing to get match ammo, but not sure if I want to load quite yet. I like my Trijicon, and would be willing to dial in if I could make it work like that. Does that make sense? I already have a 12" nordic tube, that I like, and an upper to use. This is a JP barrel, comp, and gas block for $300... yay or nay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBets Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 depending on how many rounds it has...hell yay Bets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splitime Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Not much feedback to offer.... but if that JP barrel setup isn't choosen, I'm looking for something just like it right now. Started a slow bit by bit AR build and currently mulling barrel choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint-M Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 If I was making this decision I would see what my current barrel can really do. Find someone in your area, I'm sure someone on Enos will be close, with a stable bench and high quality piece of glass and see if your barrel is capable of making those kinds of shots. If it is capable you'll know buying a different barrel won't magically fix your long range woes and you can start looking at the other pieces of the puzzle: glass, ammo, the shooter, etc... That said, if the JP barrel kit is new or like new with the matched bolt I'd buy it in a heart beat. CM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Hey all, After shooting a few years of 3 gun with a slowly tuned stag carbine, I think It might not be giving me the chance to do my best. Started as a whatever patrol rifle(16" barrel with carbine gas), but now has a free float tube, stock I like (UBR), timney trigger and a comp. It's also sporting a JP brake and trijicon accupoint 1-4x in a burris mount. It's come to my attention that I might need to make 1-2moa shots at distance, and I don't know if the rifle set up can do it. I don't have a pile of money, so to switch to a 1-6 scope I'd have to sell mine and another gun and hope for the best. However, I just got a good chance to buy a like new 18" JP medium contour barrel with adjustable gas black, comp, and rifle gas system at a really good price. I guess I'm wondering if it's worth it to upgrade the barrel without changing the scope or anything else. Will the rifle length and adjustable gas really help recoil management and speed splits? Will this better barrel help me get into the area where I want to be, accuracy wise? As a note, I don't load 223, and really don't want to. I will run match grade stuff though if that helps. Short stuff, I will still shoot 55gn Hornady or federal cheap stuff. Honestly most AR barrels shoot pretty well. Some are better than others. The first thing I would do is try good ammo. Ball amoo generally does not shoot that well for accuracy. My Noveske with ball for example is between 2 and 3 moa however with my match reloads its around 1 to 1.5 moa. So try good ammo first assuming your gun can do 1.5 moa I would upgrade your optic before the barrel. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 When you're shooting these matches, what is your limiting factor? Are you reaching out to distances and you feel you're not able to hit the targets because you can't see them? Or not able to hit the targets because no matter how much time or stability you gave the rifle, the barrel and ammo set-up will just not get the job done? I suspect your Trijicon optic is not the limiting factor. If you're only able to get 5" groups out of your match ammo at 100 yards you would probably benefit more from a better barrel/ammo combination. FWIW, my 16" pencil barrel does 2-2.5" groups off a bench with Black Hills 52gr Match looking through a Burris 1-4 scope. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdboytyler Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 ... I have to be able to hit 8" plates at 400 yards, but most of the stuff will be inside 100 yards. I'm willing to get match ammo, but not sure if I want to load quite yet. I like my Trijicon, and would be willing to dial in if I could make it work like that. ... I'm pretty sure that 8" plates at 400 yards is out of the ordinary for 3-gun matches. The 3-gun matches I've shot had the following: shorter distances, 100-200ish are 8 inch plates, 200-325ish are 12 inch and if we shoot at 400 or so we have a full size ISPC steel target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 It may also depend on your eyesight. I find a 1-6 is easier for me to use than the 1-4 I had in the past. At 6x the targets appear 50% larger than at 4x. Makes a big difference for me. If your barrel produces good groups, both cold and after 20-30 rounds, then I would put money in a 1-6 scope. My first rifle had a 16" that was fine cold, but the groups opened up as the barrel heated so that was one of the first things I changed. Put a JP-15 upper on it and now its good out to 600 yards. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 hey guys, I decided to at least start with the barrel... It's got fewer than 500 rounds through it, and he's including an adjustable gas block, gas tube, comp, and installing it for me. The only problem is now I need fancier ammo, and practice! Oh yeah, and I would totally love a 1-6 or 1-8 scope, but I'm broke! so a $300 upgrade will do, because a $3000 piece of glass won't right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 If the barrel is fairly new (less than 1000rds) then it's a grab at $300. I've printed 3" groups at 400 with my JP barrel and best ammo (although 5-6" groups are more common with my ability being the limiter). It should be a shooter. 8" plates at 400 is a bit agressive. Try your Trijicon. It may get the job done, may not. The triangle tip isn't as fine as it could be. For an 8" plate you will have to dial for sure. That barrel loves 69gr SMK bullets and does well with most 55gr ammo as well. If you don't want to reload then keep a box of Black Hills Match handy for those tough shots. I haven't tried Hornady Steel Match, but have heard good things there. If at all possible, get the JP enhanced bolt which came with the barrel kit. The bolts are head spaced individually at the factory for each barrel kit. A mill spec bolt will most likely do just fine, but if you can get the matching bolt, then all the better. Even if you have to trade the seller for a new replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splitime Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 hey guys, I decided to at least start with the barrel... It's got fewer than 500 rounds through it, and he's including an adjustable gas block, gas tube, comp, and installing it for me. The only problem is now I need fancier ammo, and practice! Oh yeah, and I would totally love a 1-6 or 1-8 scope, but I'm broke! so a $300 upgrade will do, because a $3000 piece of glass won't right now. $300... very jealous right now. Very. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepswithdogs Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) You could even sell the barrel and put a lot toward the scope you want, but I'd keep the barrel and build the gun around it, not build one around a scope. A great scope on a poor barrel would just let you see your misses more clearly! Edited May 24, 2012 by Sleepswithdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) You could even sell the barrel and put a lot toward the scope you want, but I'd keep the barrel and build the gun around it, not build one around a scope. A great scope on a poor barrel would just let you see your misses more clearly! It seems that with 4MOA being the standard for targets more and more that seeing the targets is more of an issue than hitting them. I could be wrong though. I am just saying I believe you are better off with a 2moa rifle with a top notch optic with hold overs and clear glass vs a .5moa rifle with a not so clear scope wit no hold overs. I like the TR24 and own one, but its somewhat limited once the ranges get past 300 yards. pat Edited May 24, 2012 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushmeat Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 If you're limited on budget, get the Burris MTAC (or a used XTR) and PEPR mount. Should be another $400 or so. Then once you've gotten the JP barrel installed, find a 69SMK Match load it likes - BVAC or Black Hills. Chrono out of your gun and get a ballistic drop chart. Then compare reticle subtentions to your chart so you know to hold on, over or under at each respective dot/distance. If you're using 55s for the short stuff (200 or less) should be pretty close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Or you could shoot limited and skip the scope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 JP barrels are awesome! Your scope is fine. Get the barrel and you will be Shooting sub MOA instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted May 26, 2012 Author Share Posted May 26, 2012 so got the new barrel and had it installed today. While sighting in the same old 4x scope, I managed to put 3 rounds through a 0.39" hole at 50 yards. That's not center to center, either. Total diameter. Went to 100, saw a half clay on the back and broke it instantly. I think maybe this was a good investment. This is all cheap 55 grain, too! I can't wait to see what some 69+ would do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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