Shotgun Magazine Capacity in Non-Open Divisions

[Jesse Tischauser]

Then shame on you for not educating your friend. Surely you of all people have the experience to know this is a possibility at some matches, and that a careful reading of the rules is always wise? Why should the rest of the 3-gun world bend to the whims of your local rules?

Good point! I'll see if March Director Kurt Miller will allow us to use a different set of major match rules every month. That outta help teach these annoying newbies!

You didn't have a problem with YOUR shotgun configuration did you? It sounds like you knew the rules, but declined to help your buddy out with the advice he could have really used BEFORE the match. If this sport is going to continue to grow, we all have a duty to share our collective experience with newbies from the moment they enter the sport so their learning curve is as steep and costless as possible.

Let me tell you a little about my duty to new Shooters. I have my back up Stag 3G and a brand new Loki 3G that I loan out regularly. I have two Accurate Iron Benelli M1's with an entire set of backup Caddys, I also have a Glock 34 or 35 that gets loaned out to HELP new shooters. What I typically do with first timers is give them a 12 round tube and load the shotgun up to 12+1+1 and have them shoot against our 1 or 2 Open shooters so they don't have to worry about loading their shotgun on the clock. They dont come to win like me. They want to shoot and have fun while learning the game. Most of them don't even know the rules until after the match if even then. If they have fun and/or do well they come back. If they finish last and struggle they don't. My only goal is to get them to return.

I guess I need to start offering to meet new Shooters before the match so that I can read them the rules and take questions.

This is where USPSA has an advantage over local matches being run under "IMGA" rules or in many cases no rules only "this is how it's done at big matches we shoot" but nothing on paper rules. New shooter can go to our website and read the rules before showing up. This will be made easier by our new book, which is done and will be posted for comment soon!

The USPSA rule book is the place most Shooters go first because they are typically pistol shooters crossing over to 3 gun. Having to tell them no go those rules only apply for USPSA. Instead go read X match rules for shotgun then Y match rules for rifle is a PIA.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Jesse Tischauser

[DyNo!]

I think we're forgetting that if the gun can't hold more than 9 shells at the start - that eliminates the need for an RO to keep count.

I hate to be the slippery slope guy but when does TO become Open since I'm sure there will be a method at some point to have an "XRail" type device that can be quickly loaded by hand.

The easy way to fix this problem is to design stages that have a lot of movement between shotgun arrays (and not too many shots in them) - stages that have less than 9 shots of shotgun (which is becomming common) - and stages that involve ports/props at close quarters.

Yup - a hoser stage would be great too. One could start the shooter directly in front of the array.

Edited May 22, 2012 by DyNo!

[BillD]

I can see at some point Tac Optics allowing mag fed shotguns.

People who do this want to go fast. Shooting as quickly as your sights are on the target, moving quickly from position to position, etc, this is what we do.

And then we stand still for 4-8 seconds, loading a shotgun. Honestly, when I watch my own videos and others, it seems like such a stupid thing to do.

I say we put non optic mag fed shotguns in Tac Ops.

YMMV.

Be a bunch of FN's and Benelli's for sale cheap.....

ETA: We preload our shotguns at a table against the side berm, 4-6 guys at a time. There is no RO counting shells.

We also dump our shotguns in plastic garbage cans. Im not sure but some of those 18" extensions (ending up with a 5' long shotgun) probably wouldn't survive the repeated impact.

Edited May 22, 2012 by BillD

[AlamoShooter]

In order to pass the USPSA multi-gun RO test I had to look at 5 FIVE different sources. The Rule bookS are on disc. I personally have not seen a written Multi Gun USPSA hard copy Rule book

[HoMiE]

I hate to be the slippery slope guy but when does TO become Open since I'm sure there will be a method at some point to have an "XRail" type device that can be quickly loaded by hand.

I can see at some point Tac Optics allowing mag fed shotguns.

People who do this want to go fast. Shooting as quickly as your sights are on the target, moving quickly from position to position, etc, this is what we do.

And then we stand still for 4-8 seconds, loading a shotgun. Honestly, when I watch my own videos and others, it seems like such a stupid thing to do.

I say we put non optic mag fed shotguns in Tac Ops.

YMMV.

Be a bunch of FN's and Benelli's for sale cheap.....

ETA: We preload our shotguns at a table against the side berm, 4-6 guys at a time. There is no RO counting shells.

We also dump our shotguns in plastic garbage cans. Im not sure but some of those 18" extensions (ending up with a 5' long shotgun) probably wouldn't survive the repeated impact.

And so the equipment race begins...

Anyone who wants to load 9+1+1 or 12+1 or unlimited after the beep can do so now, it's called Open.

Make the rules simple so most people can show up and shoot without having to make them shoot open because they didnt know the rules or spend money on the highest capacity shotgun or xrail.

[Jesse Tischauser]

High Plains shotgun allows Saigas with 9 or 10 round capacity mags in The Semi Auto limited/tactical division. I don't think anyone running one has ever won though.

If mag fed guns become reliable enough to overtake my Benelli I say we ditch the tubes and go with the boxes. Call it lesbo division. It is easy to limit mag length in a Saiga type shotgun.

Problem solved! Now which manufacturer is going to win the box fed shotgun race?

[cajun0007]

Then shame on you for not educating your friend. Surely you of all people have the experience to know this is a possibility at some matches, and that a careful reading of the rules is always wise? Why should the rest of the 3-gun world bend to the whims of your local rules?

Good point! I'll see if March Director Kurt Miller will allow us to use a different set of major match rules every month. That outta help teach these annoying newbies!

You didn't have a problem with YOUR shotgun configuration did you? It sounds like you knew the rules, but declined to help your buddy out with the advice he could have really used BEFORE the match. If this sport is going to continue to grow, we all have a duty to share our collective experience with newbies from the moment they enter the sport so their learning curve is as steep and costless as possible.

Stealthy, Jesse "The Mayor" has done a lot to help new shooters in OK and N. TX in the past couple years including myself. From lending equipment to new shooters to helping breakdown stages at matches. He is constantly trying to get new shooters involved in the sport. FYI

[StealthyBlagga]

I think we're forgetting that if the gun can't hold more than 9 shells at the start - that eliminates the need for an RO to keep count.

My Versa Max can only hold 7+1+1 of the 3-1/2" magnum shells I always run ( ). Under your new regime, I assume this would be legal. Now that the RO "no longer has to keep count" of shells loaded, you will just trust my personal integrity not to switch back to 2-3/4" shells with which I can enjoy a 10+1+1 capacity, right? Are we seeing the problem yet?

Counting shells on initial loading is perfectly manageable for any RO crew with their act together.

Like I said in my first post, I would not necessarily be opposed to a return to the old 22" barrel rule (or even shorter - 18" is a common off-the-shelf length). On the other hand, this seems like a lot of fuss over nothing - still "not broke" in my book.

Edited May 22, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[StealthyBlagga]

Stealthy, Jesse "The Mayor" has done a lot to help new shooters in OK and N. TX in the past couple years including myself. From lending equipment to new shooters to helping breakdown stages at matches. He is constantly trying to get new shooters involved in the sport. FYI

I don't doubt that - I'm sure he is a very nice man. That is not the point I was making. He is proposing a rule change to supposedly accommodate the naiveté iof new shooters when, in my view, he could have more easily avoided the problem by explaining the realities of competitive 3-gun to his buddy before he attended a major match. I'm also unconvinced that the lack of one shell at the start of a stage was a soul-destroying experience that will drive his buddy from the sport... lots of drama over not very much IMHO.

Edited May 22, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[mertbl]

Id like to see iron sighted u-comped box fed shotguns in tac optics but that's a whole other animal.

[bigbrowndog]

so lets see, paying lots of money to get to a match, enter the match, and pay for ammo and then not reading the rules is the MD's fault????

The easiest way to avoid not having issues with the rules is to..............NOT PLAY!!!

The 2nd easiest way is to.................READ THE RULES!!!

If you refuse to read the rules, then shame on you. If your buddy refuses to tell you about the idiosyncrasies of match rules then shame on them.

But as Mr. Horner said on another topic, if you insist on stirring up discord about things that don't need to be stirred up. Then don't go shoot the match, I'm quite sure someone will be very pleased to come off of the waiting list.

For my information Jesse, are you suggesting that HPSC utilize the standard rules for IPSC because they are the practical shotgun standard for the World!!! If so then consider yourself being held to the stricter standard of the current set of rules, because what you are proposing in this poll is exactly opposite of what you wanted Kurt and I to do which was not recognize the new set of accepted, voted on, and ratified rules. Yet you now say you want a standardized set of rules to used???????

Trapr

[Stlhead]

While I am not against the canonization of the mayor for all of his contributions to our sport, I don't see any need to address this nonissue. As for breaking down stages and helping other shooters, it is the duty of all that enjoy our sport to support it in any way possible, and the reward for doing the right thing by our sport is the opportunity to continue to do the right thing. Ours is a volunteer sport supported by those that love it, if you love it, support it.

Cheers.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Stlhead

[shootingbuff]

An Old rule of 22" or under for AOL barrel mag was in place in some rules, when I started to buy equipment for 3gun But it was very difficult at the time to find a barrel under 24".

My knee jerk reaction to any rule add or change that limits equipment is NO

This pretty much sums it up for me. What we do NOT want is a rule that requires ROs to keep track of how many shells a shooter loads or shoots. The way we do it in IMA-SMM3G rules is a very pragmatic approach - start with 8+1, then do what you like after the beep.

I confess I liked the simplicity of the old SOF "22 inch barrel, and mag tube not more than 1 inch past the muzzle" rule. The guns were more compact and "practical", and if you could squeeze 12 x 2-1/2" shells into your gun, go nuts

+1

[chendersby]

In order to pass the USPSA multi-gun RO test I had to look at 5 FIVE different sources. The Rule bookS are on disc. I personally have not seen a written Multi Gun USPSA hard copy Rule book

You will soon

[benjamin]

it seems like the major issue is some sort of "unification" of rules. not saying there shouldn't be some flexiablity, but right now it just seems a little too unorganized (not referencing the whole shotgun debate, just rules in general). At CMMG last weekend, one stage had the shotgun not chambered, safety on, next stage shotgun could be not chambered, safety off. So even within the same match you have one stage/RO who refused to have the safety off even if one is not in the chamber, next stage/RO is fine with it. Everyone would have to agree that (i know this is being worked on) not having a website/set rules, etc.. that everyone can reference that is interested in the sport is not a good thing (that is why i really like what 3gunnation is doing right now). Opposed to any new pistol shooter can go to uspsa.com and find out everything they need to know..

on the counting shells, i don't think that could really work, just too difficult to enforce/keep track of...

[Jesse Tischauser]

so lets see, paying lots of money to get to a match, enter the match, and pay for ammo and then not reading the rules is the MD's fault????

The easiest way to avoid not having issues with the rules is to..............NOT PLAY!!!

The 2nd easiest way is to.................READ THE RULES!!!

If you refuse to read the rules, then shame on you. If your buddy refuses to tell you about the idiosyncrasies of match rules then shame on them.

But as Mr. Horner said on another topic, if you insist on stirring up discord about things that don't need to be stirred up. Then don't go shoot the match, I'm quite sure someone will be very pleased to come off of the waiting list.

For my information Jesse, are you suggesting that HPSC utilize the standard rules for IPSC because they are the practical shotgun standard for the World!!! If so then consider yourself being held to the stricter standard of the current set of rules, because what you are proposing in this poll is exactly opposite of what you wanted Kurt and I to do which was not recognize the new set of accepted, voted on, and ratified rules. Yet you now say you want a standardized set of rules to used???????

Trapr

So what your saying is you don't have an opinion about the question at hand just an opinion about me and my questions?

In regards to high plains I didn't suggest anything I simply stated that it allows saigas in semi auto division. It does doesn't it?

[Jesse Tischauser]

While I am not against the canonization of the mayor for all of his contributions to our sport, I don't see any need to address this nonissue. As for breaking down stages and helping other shooters, it is the duty of all that enjoy our sport to support it in any way possible, and the reward for doing the right thing by our sport is the opportunity to continue to do the right thing. Ours is a volunteer sport supported by those that love it, if you love it, support it.

Cheers.

I had to google canonization and I thank you!

[AlamoShooter]

Saint Jesse of 3gun .. maybe next year

[bigbrowndog]

my comment about HPSC was based on what you had told Kurt and I when we were trying to decide whether or not to use the current ruleset or the old ruleset, the confusion comes from trying to figure out if its standardized rules you're looking for or just rules you like. because we all have rules that we think are silly or make no sense to us, but they are standardized and recognized, I think its because of that silliness that we as MD's change things to suit us or suit what we think makes more sense. Look at what Kurt did at OKC when he went back to the "original" HM rule of allowing a auto SG, it goes against what is the current thinking of what HM should be, but he's the MD so he gets to do what he wants, because it makes sense to him. Do I agree, NO but HM is so FU now I don't really care about it anymore, i just wish they'd make one HM division and I don't care if it allows an optic or an auto sg or a minor pistol, just make it one frickin' division.

HPSC allows box fed SG's to compete in standard auto SG, how FU'd up is that??? No one else does it, but we wanted to, so we did. Kurt and I want to use the IPSC sg rules for our SG match, but when they voted all kinds of weird, silly, or what we thought were stupid rules into effect we decided to use the old set of rules. Its that freedom to use, make or delete certain rules that makes IMGA matches soooo much better than other matches.

If you don't agree, then don't play.

trapr

[Jesse Tischauser]

my comment about HPSC was based on what you had told Kurt and I when we were trying to decide whether or not to use the current ruleset or the old ruleset, the confusion comes from trying to figure out if its standardized rules you're looking for or just rules you like. because we all have rules that we think are silly or make no sense to us, but they are standardized and recognized, I think its because of that silliness that we as MD's change things to suit us or suit what we think makes more sense. Look at what Kurt did at OKC when he went back to the "original" HM rule of allowing a auto SG, it goes against what is the current thinking of what HM should be, but he's the MD so he gets to do what he wants, because it makes sense to him. Do I agree, NO but HM is so FU now I don't really care about it anymore, i just wish they'd make one HM division and I don't care if it allows an optic or an auto sg or a minor pistol, just make it one frickin' division.

HPSC allows box fed SG's to compete in standard auto SG, how FU'd up is that??? No one else does it, but we wanted to, so we did. Kurt and I want to use the IPSC sg rules for our SG match, but when they voted all kinds of weird, silly, or what we thought were stupid rules into effect we decided to use the old set of rules. Its that freedom to use, make or delete certain rules that makes IMGA matches soooo much better than other matches.

If you don't agree, then don't play.

trapr

So nobody should use a shotgun mag extension?

[outerlimits]

Lets just go with tube or mag fed-who cares how they get loaded (tec loaders, 2x4x6, who cares).

[BillD]

I hate to be the slippery slope guy but when does TO become Open since I'm sure there will be a method at some point to have an "XRail" type device that can be quickly loaded by hand.

I can see at some point Tac Optics allowing mag fed shotguns.

People who do this want to go fast. Shooting as quickly as your sights are on the target, moving quickly from position to position, etc, this is what we do.

And then we stand still for 4-8 seconds, loading a shotgun. Honestly, when I watch my own videos and others, it seems like such a stupid thing to do.

I say we put non optic mag fed shotguns in Tac Ops.

YMMV.

Be a bunch of FN's and Benelli's for sale cheap.....

ETA: We preload our shotguns at a table against the side berm, 4-6 guys at a time. There is no RO counting shells.

We also dump our shotguns in plastic garbage cans. Im not sure but some of those 18" extensions (ending up with a 5' long shotgun) probably wouldn't survive the repeated impact.

And so the equipment race begins...

Anyone who wants to load 9+1+1 or 12+1 or unlimited after the beep can do so now, it's called Open.

Make the rules simple so most people can show up and shoot without having to make them shoot open because they didnt know the rules or spend money on the highest capacity shotgun or xrail.

IMO the equipment race started a long time ago. How many different types of shotgun shell caddies/holders/devices have we come up with to cut a second or less off the reload time?

I think it would be much simpler to start with 10 in a mag and reload with another mag.

FYI, I own a FN-SLP. I don't own a box mag fed shotgun, I just think they are the way of the future.

Edited May 23, 2012 by BillD

[Tririi556]

Would running a Saiga 12 with only 8 round magazines still be considered open?

[StealthyBlagga]

Would running a Saiga 12 with only 8 round magazines still be considered open?

Yup

[Mike P]

Ye Gads! After reading 3 pages of arguements for/against rule changes, I'm pretty sure I could have more easily read a set of rules for any match I might be interested in attending.

Not broken IMO.