Eliminate divisions from classification system?

[motosapiens]

I still think people enjoy "leveling up," as the computer-gamers would say, so a handicapping system or chess-ranking system should work just fine. I also think IDPA's level-naming is much more appealing than D-, C-, B-, and A-class: Novice, Marksman, Sharpshooter, and Expert.

thanks for sharing your thoughts. I guess I've only shot local matches so far, and we don't have any plaques or prizes, so I wasn't aware that was a motivating factor for some people.

I agree that the idpa-classes sound a little less judgemental, but the uspsa ones don't put me out, even tho i'm still at the lower end. for me at least, the end result is the same, try to move up to the next class (as a sort of milestone) and try to improve my percentages compared to the winners and consistently good shooters in my area.

[West Texas Granny]

The sport would wither and die if not for the classification system.

Why?

Do you think some people would get discouraged and quit if they didn't have a chance of winning a plaque or prize?

I think that kind of stuff is important to some folks, but I have no idea how many need the artificial ego-stroking and how many can just use the overall and their percentages to see their improvement and gain gratification from simply getting better.

I do think that the different classifications offer tangible goals even for the improvement-driven shooters that aren't hoping to get a prize, but I wonder how important being high shooter in a class is to some folks. It's completely irrelevant to me because I know I would only be the 'high' shooter due to the artificial exclusion of many others just because they are better.

But whatever. I just like to shoot, and I can see how my percentages are getting better regardless of what everyone else does, so whatever makes y'all happy is awesome.

That's an easy question. The classification system is a feedback process that allows the individual shooter to know where they are in the pecking order. It allows the shooter to monitor their growth as a shooter and provides standards to meet in their progress to the top. It's also a motivation tool. If your shooting buddies are C class and you are D class you will naturally work to become a C class shooter if not a "B" class shooter.

It all comes down to human nature.

Most people try to keep up with the Joneses whereas USPSA shooters try to keep up with our GM's. We can't do that if we don't know where we are which the classification system provides.

[38SuperDub]

I didn't read this WHOLE thread but here is my 1 issue with the current system:

Why wait for 4 classifiers before you are automatically classed in every other division. If you are an "A" class Limited shooter - you should INSTANTLY become "B" in everything else - why wait for 4 classifiers to get classed? This would save having people shoot the "U" division who are actually classed high in other divisions. Not picking on anyone but last week at MS Classic Max Jr. won HOA SS while being "U" class - I know he just started shooting but if there were others in the class would it have been fair for Max to be 1st "U" when everyone knows how great he is?

Get rid of the 4 classifiers to be classified if automatically classified in another division. All this would do is eliminate some sandbagging

[jar]

I didn't read this WHOLE thread but here is my 1 issue with the current system:

Why wait for 4 classifiers before you are automatically classed in every other division. If you are an "A" class Limited shooter - you should INSTANTLY become "B" in everything else - why wait for 4 classifiers to get classed? This would save having people shoot the "U" division who are actually classed high in other divisions. Not picking on anyone but last week at MS Classic Max Jr. won HOA SS while being "U" class - I know he just started shooting but if there were others in the class would it have been fair for Max to be 1st "U" when everyone knows how great he is?

Get rid of the 4 classifiers to be classified if automatically classified in another division. All this would do is eliminate some sandbagging

There's no such thing as first U. Unclassified shooters compete for overall place in division only.

[38SuperDub]

So last month at Space City when they gave out "First" unclassified plaque what was that?

I've seen matches hand out plaques for "U" division - which is why I brought it up.

What would be wrong with automatically classifying in every division?

[GeorgeInNePa]

This may have been addressed already. I haven't read past the first page...

Why are there two separate classifications for Limited and Limited10?

The overwhelming bulk of classifiers have mandatory reloads in them or are set up with separate strings of fire to make capacity irrelevant.

Shouldn't L and L10 be the same class?

[bbbean]

I have no idea how many need the artificial ego-stroking...

Given that many subscribers here, shooters on other forums, and class winners at major matches DO seem to be proud of their accomplishment when they win their class, could we skip the insults? It isn't "artificial ego stroking" to enjoy a title/plaque/prize/recognition when you're the best in a group of similarly skilled shooters.

I respect and admire shooters who start this sport with the goal of earning a world championship. It takes a special set of characteristics to be that single mindedly devoted and to have the resources to put in that kind of time and effort. But I also respect someone who comes into the sport as a weekend warrior and puts in the effort to rise from D to C to B to whatever. I don't think we should demean the effort or the accomplishment when someone manages to be the best shooter with a classification between 60 and 75 any more than I'd demean players who win prizes for their work in minor league baseball.

BB

[West Texas Granny]

I didn't read this WHOLE thread but here is my 1 issue with the current system:

Why wait for 4 classifiers before you are automatically classed in every other division. If you are an "A" class Limited shooter - you should INSTANTLY become "B" in everything else - why wait for 4 classifiers to get classed? This would save having people shoot the "U" division who are actually classed high in other divisions. Not picking on anyone but last week at MS Classic Max Jr. won HOA SS while being "U" class - I know he just started shooting but if there were others in the class would it have been fair for Max to be 1st "U" when everyone knows how great he is?

Get rid of the 4 classifiers to be classified if automatically classified in another division. All this would do is eliminate some sandbagging

This is something I would like to see as I would like to get classified in each division otherwise it's a year or more to accomplish the task.

[motosapiens]

The sport would wither and die if not for the classification system.

Why?

Do you think some people would get discouraged and quit if they didn't have a chance of winning a plaque or prize?

I think that kind of stuff is important to some folks, but I have no idea how many need the artificial ego-stroking and how many can just use the overall and their percentages to see their improvement and gain gratification from simply getting better.

I do think that the different classifications offer tangible goals even for the improvement-driven shooters that aren't hoping to get a prize, but I wonder how important being high shooter in a class is to some folks. It's completely irrelevant to me because I know I would only be the 'high' shooter due to the artificial exclusion of many others just because they are better.

But whatever. I just like to shoot, and I can see how my percentages are getting better regardless of what everyone else does, so whatever makes y'all happy is awesome.

That's an easy question. The classification system is a feedback process that allows the individual shooter to know where they are in the pecking order. It allows the shooter to monitor their growth as a shooter and provides standards to meet in their progress to the top. It's also a motivation tool. If your shooting buddies are C class and you are D class you will naturally work to become a C class shooter if not a "B" class shooter.

It all comes down to human nature.

Most people try to keep up with the Joneses whereas USPSA shooters try to keep up with our GM's. We can't do that if we don't know where we are which the classification system provides.

Good post. Thanks for the further explanation.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Why are there two separate classifications for Limited and Limited10?

I suspect it hasn't occurred to anyone that Limited and Limited 10 could be separate divisions sharing one classification.

[motosapiens]

I don't think we should demean the effort or the accomplishment when someone manages to be the best shooter with a classification between 60 and 75 any more than I'd demean players who win prizes for their work in minor league baseball.

Hmm. That's an interesting view, and I like the way you phrased it.

I think getting a prize for being the best shooter classified between 60 and 75 is pretty demeaning to the shooters classified at 76 and 77. Being proud of having your best day (and then getting bumped to the next class) is fine, but trophies, plaques and especially prizes of any real value seems hard for me to get behind. It just seems like it rewards and encourages sandbagging.

Perhaps the nfl should have a playoff game and trophy for the two best teams that won fewer than 8 games in the regular season. The raiders and chargers would still probably lose when the pressure was on , but at least some team would feel better.

[sperman]

Perhaps the nfl should have a playoff game and trophy for the two best teams that won fewer than 8 games in the regular season. The raiders and chargers would still probably lose when the pressure was on , but at least some team would feel better.

Your analogy isn't quite right. That would be like awarding a trophy to the guy who finished mid pack GM. A more appropriate analogy would be to have playoffs for minor league baseball (which they do.)

[motosapiens]

Perhaps the nfl should have a playoff game and trophy for the two best teams that won fewer than 8 games in the regular season. The raiders and chargers would still probably lose when the pressure was on , but at least some team would feel better.

Your analogy isn't quite right. That would be like awarding a trophy to the guy who finished mid pack GM. A more appropriate analogy would be to have playoffs for minor league baseball (which they do.)

I'm not sure I agree, because minor league teams don't actually compete in the same events as major league teams, whereas C's and D's shoot in the exact same matches that GM's do.

If you want to make an analogy to pro sports, you'd have to only allow the best shooters at nationals, and exclude at least the b's and lower. I don't think anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

FWIW, I do think playoffs for minor league sports are slightly silly, but I still go to a few of the games when the steelheads are playing and I cheer them on.

[bbbean]

I think getting a prize for being the best shooter classified between 60 and 75 is pretty demeaning to the shooters classified at 76 and 77.

Why?

It seems to me that there's a contradiction between "I'm only in this for the improvement, and don't want any recognition til I'm #1" and "Hey wait, that guy just got recognized! Why didn't I get recognized for being 14th place B?"

Maybe I'm just so focused on my own improvement that I don't get upset if a D or C class guy got a prize and I had to settle for being the slowest of the fast shooters. I started in D and have worked my way up to B so I'm certainly familiar with the "I would have gotten a prize for the same performance last week" phenomenon. But that's part of moving up - you improve and move into a faster set of competitors. I can't imagine resenting someone else getting recognized, and I wouldn't demean their accomplishment.

But c'est la vie. The system we have works and isn't likely to go anywhere soon.

BB

[sperman]

Perhaps the nfl should have a playoff game and trophy for the two best teams that won fewer than 8 games in the regular season. The raiders and chargers would still probably lose when the pressure was on , but at least some team would feel better.

Your analogy isn't quite right. That would be like awarding a trophy to the guy who finished mid pack GM. A more appropriate analogy would be to have playoffs for minor league baseball (which they do.)

I'm not sure I agree, because minor league teams don't actually compete in the same events as major league teams, whereas C's and D's shoot in the exact same matches that GM's do.

If you want to make an analogy to pro sports, you'd have to only allow the best shooters at nationals, and exclude at least the b's and lower. I don't think anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

FWIW, I do think playoffs for minor league sports are slightly silly, but I still go to a few of the games when the steelheads are playing and I cheer them on.

Do you also think playoffs for high school teams are silly? What about college bowl games? Is the only legitimate sporting event the one that occurs at the professional level?

[Jaxshooter]

I am 61 years old with afib and neuropothy. I am retired and in addition to time I have the resources to shoot all day 7 days a week. I was a professional athlete so I have the physical ability ( without the problems above) and mental ability to compete at the upper tier. Unfortunately with the physical problems I have there is no way I can shoot at the GM or M level. So listening to this post I should just sell my guns and quit shooting because I am only in C class. I should not be recognized if I come in first in lowly C class. Keep that attitude and do away with the class system we have now and soon the only shooters you have will be the ones with a chance at winning. Sponsorship will be lost because the manufactures want the shooters to purchase their products. Limited entries will cut down on sales especially when you are looking for purchases from GM and M class shooters. Purchases of merchandise are made by the lower class shooters looking for that magic gun, holster or bullet etc.,far more than the GMs and Masters who will stay with what they have because it is working.

You need to start a professional division or separate GM and, M class and shoot against each other. You will say there will not be enough money to shoot for if they don't have the entry fees from the lower classes. Now the picture becomes clearer, you want the lower class money with no classes . Top shooter and runner up and x# of places depending on total entries..It would be cheaper if all of the A class and below just sent their entry fee in and stayed home. That way you save gas, motel expense, money from meals and bullets.

If you want to make it interesting have all of the GMs and M class shooters put up $500.00. each for a separate purse. Shoot the match and the top shooter takes the purse. See what tightens up when your money is on the line..

[uspsa06007]

well spoken Jaxshooter post # 91

[Chills1994]

....college bowl games...

Not to pick nits, but college bowls usually get one big sponsor and are televised. They are just a venue to sell advertising and to make money.

[Seeker]

I am 61 years old with afib and neuropothy. I am retired and in addition to time I have the resources to shoot all day 7 days a week. I was a professional athlete so I have the physical ability ( without the problems above) and mental ability to compete at the upper tier. Unfortunately with the physical problems I have there is no way I can shoot at the GM or M level. So listening to this post I should just sell my guns and quit shooting because I am only in C class. I should not be recognized if I come in first in lowly C class. Keep that attitude and do away with the class system we have now and soon the only shooters you have will be the ones with a chance at winning. Sponsorship will be lost because the manufactures want the shooters to purchase their products. Limited entries will cut down on sales especially when you are looking for purchases from GM and M class shooters. Purchases of merchandise are made by the lower class shooters looking for that magic gun, holster or bullet etc.,far more than the GMs and Masters who will stay with what they have because it is working.

You need to start a professional division or separate GM and, M class and shoot against each other. You will say there will not be enough money to shoot for if they don't have the entry fees from the lower classes. Now the picture becomes clearer, you want the lower class money with no classes . Top shooter and runner up and x# of places depending on total entries..It would be cheaper if all of the A class and below just sent their entry fee in and stayed home. That way you save gas, motel expense, money from meals and bullets.

If you want to make it interesting have all of the GMs and M class shooters put up $500.00. each for a separate purse. Shoot the match and the top shooter takes the purse. See what tightens up when your money is on the line..

Perfectly put.

[Supermoto]

It was awesome in school when I got awards for get the highest D grade on a test... I was the smartest of the dumb kids, the next year I got bumped up to the big bus.

Trophies go to those that do the best, not those who met an arbitrary line

[Chills1994]

not to mention an arbitrary line that has still not been officially disclosed/publicized by USPSA HQ.

even I can go to google to see who holds the world record in the men's long jump or 100 meter dash.

[motosapiens]

Perhaps the nfl should have a playoff game and trophy for the two best teams that won fewer than 8 games in the regular season. The raiders and chargers would still probably lose when the pressure was on , but at least some team would feel better.

Your analogy isn't quite right. That would be like awarding a trophy to the guy who finished mid pack GM. A more appropriate analogy would be to have playoffs for minor league baseball (which they do.)

I'm not sure I agree, because minor league teams don't actually compete in the same events as major league teams, whereas C's and D's shoot in the exact same matches that GM's do.

If you want to make an analogy to pro sports, you'd have to only allow the best shooters at nationals, and exclude at least the b's and lower. I don't think anyone thinks that would be a good idea.

FWIW, I do think playoffs for minor league sports are slightly silly, but I still go to a few of the games when the steelheads are playing and I cheer them on.

Do you also think playoffs for high school teams are silly? What about college bowl games? Is the only legitimate sporting event the one that occurs at the professional level?

Every single major-league player (even the worst) makes more money than every single minor league player (even the champions), and every single minor league player (even the worst) gets paid more money to play than every single highschool player (even the champions). Nobody sandbags in minor leagues. No one says "I hope I don't get picked up by a major league team because I'd rather be the mvp of my minor league team than just another journeyman in the majors."

With that in mind, it would make sense to me that every B shooter would be at *least* as rewarded as the high C and D shooters (again, not really talking about plaques or trophies so much as prizes of actual value that encourage sandbagging).

[Chills1994]

Division champs go to the prize table first and get a division champ plaque/trophy.

What's left gets randomed off to the 2nd place through last place shooters.

No need to have classifications.

[motosapiens]

I am 61 years old with afib and neuropothy. I am retired and in addition to time I have the resources to shoot all day 7 days a week. I was a professional athlete so I have the physical ability ( without the problems above) and mental ability to compete at the upper tier. Unfortunately with the physical problems I have there is no way I can shoot at the GM or M level. So listening to this post I should just sell my guns and quit shooting because I am only in C class. I should not be recognized if I come in first in lowly C class.

I have no idea what you're responding to. Hopefully not any of my posts, because you completely missed my point. No sport could succeed without legions of enthusiasts, and regardless of whether those people are GM's or B-C-D shooters, they can still derive great personal reward from their own effort and their own improvement. How about if instead of seeking recognition for being first in and artificial and arbitrary C class, you rejoice in your own improvement for shooting your highest percentage ever? That would be more important to me than being 'first' in a class in which all the better shooters have been removed. I could get lucky and just have a day where no other good competitors in my class showed up, but I would feel better placing lower in the class, but shooting my best percentage of the winner's score, especially in a match with several M's and GM's.

I actually have some trophies from bicycle and motorcycle racing from the days that no one else good in my class showed up, and they don't mean nearly as much to me as the days where I raced much better, and was much closer to the overall winners, but placed lower in my class.

At any rate, I can see this whole discussion is rubbing some people the wrong way, and for that, I apologize. This was only meant to be a discussion, not an indictment of how anyone else wants to live their life. I don't take it personally that my priorities are screwed up because I value improvement over trophies and recognition. Please don't take it personally if I say your priorities don't work for me.

[motosapiens]

I am 61 years old with afib and neuropothy. I am retired and in addition to time I have the resources to shoot all day 7 days a week. I was a professional athlete so I have the physical ability ( without the problems above) and mental ability to compete at the upper tier. Unfortunately with the physical problems I have there is no way I can shoot at the GM or M level. So listening to this post I should just sell my guns and quit shooting because I am only in C class. I should not be recognized if I come in first in lowly C class. Keep that attitude and do away with the class system we have now and soon the only shooters you have will be the ones with a chance at winning. Sponsorship will be lost because the manufactures want the shooters to purchase their products. Limited entries will cut down on sales especially when you are looking for purchases from GM and M class shooters. Purchases of merchandise are made by the lower class shooters looking for that magic gun, holster or bullet etc.,far more than the GMs and Masters who will stay with what they have because it is working.

You need to start a professional division or separate GM and, M class and shoot against each other. You will say there will not be enough money to shoot for if they don't have the entry fees from the lower classes. Now the picture becomes clearer, you want the lower class money with no classes . Top shooter and runner up and x# of places depending on total entries..It would be cheaper if all of the A class and below just sent their entry fee in and stayed home. That way you save gas, motel expense, money from meals and bullets.

If you want to make it interesting have all of the GMs and M class shooters put up $500.00. each for a separate purse. Shoot the match and the top shooter takes the purse. See what tightens up when your money is on the line..

I re-read your post more carefully, and I still don't really know what you were responding to, but you make some good points. In my perfect moto-world, most of the prizes would be raffled off. Let's face it, all of us are in this for fun and self-improvement. Giving valuable prizes to class winners tends to find the same people (some of them sandbaggers) getting rewarded, while all the rank and file enthusiasts who pay the bills get ignored. It seems better to me from a marketing standpoint that many of the prizes go to people who aren't going to win their class (perhaps because they reached the class where they are in the middle instead of dominating), but are still showing up to events, and working to put on events and are the ones keeping the sport alive.

Having said all that, let me reiterate that this is purely an exchange of ideas, and shouldn't be taken as a rant or complaint. I'm a fairly new shooter, and y'all have done a great job without me for many years. You can even give a car to the high-d shooter, and I'll do my dangdest to get bumped to c, then b, then a, even if it means I don't get a car. I'm in this for challenge, improvement, fellowship with other shooters and a good time, not to win a motorhome.

Edited May 25, 2012 by motosapiens