phara Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Here's the way it happened. I shoot revolver division. The first shot was through a port at one steel. Around the corner at distances of about 10 yards were three IDPA targets. Rather than do a standing reload after the steel I chose to run around the corner and shoot the three IDPA'a on the move. I put two rounds in two of the targets and one in the last (for a total of 6 rounds) and ducked behind cover to do my reload. After reloading I put another round in the remaining target and then finished out the stage. Should I have done the reload after the one steel target because I knew there were 3 IDPA's waiting for me around the corner? Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Here's the way it happened. I shoot revolver division. The first shot was through a port at one steel. Around the corner at distances of about 10 yards were three IDPA targets. Rather than do a standing reload after the steel I chose to run around the corner and shoot the three IDPA'a on the move. I put two rounds in two of the targets and one in the last (for a total of 6 rounds) and ducked behind cover to do my reload. After reloading I put another round in the remaining target and then finished out the stage. Should I have done the reload after the one steel target because I knew there were 3 IDPA's waiting for me around the corner? Thanks, Paul Given your description , I would have done the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Is that a "ruling" type of situation? Or, is that shooters choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Did you leave cover with an unloaded gun? No. Did you seek cover in order to do a reload? Yes. No problem here. Now, choosing to shoot revolver --- that's a whole 'nother level of lunacy..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted July 12, 2004 Author Share Posted July 12, 2004 Thanks all for the input! "Now, choosing to shoot revolver --- that's a whole 'nother level of lunacy...." Yeah but it gives all you semi-auto folks a chance to take a nap! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Paul, I was hoping you'd find it humorous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Lord knows that we need the rest! Sounds to me like the COF was not "6 shot revolver neutral" either. Anyone shooting a "big round thang" should be competitive with the autoloaders (and not just the other revolvers) on a properly configured COF Be safe, have fun, geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Is that a "ruling" type of situation? Or, is that shooters choice? Flexmoney, I'm not sure I understand your question but the course description did not dictate a way to shoot the course of fire. Sounds to me like the COF was not "6 shot revolver neutral" either Well believe me, I'm totally used to being abused in that department Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 You did everything within the rulebook. From a gamey standpoint, if you are capable of doing a real fast TL with a wheelgun you might have picked up some time there, but it woudl depend on the speed of the TL. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Paul, did you get a penalty here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted July 13, 2004 Author Share Posted July 13, 2004 Paul, did you get a penalty here? No, I may be slow to shoot but I can be very quick to sign my score sheet (sometimes too quick)! The stage designer thought I should have gotten a procedural. There was some discussion, but no resolution until now. Thanks all! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I am in favor of making all stages revolver neutral. because there are only 2-3 rounds aired in most "real" gun altercations. I say there isn't a great advantage to having 200 rounds in your mag. I say this knowning full well that when i make up a stage and shoot it bill nesbitt is highly probabally of beating me shooting a wheel gun :-) I would have shot it the same way you did. i mean really u shouldn't "know" about the rest of the bad guys around the corner.. if you did would you "really" go around that corner. as stated above you followed all of IDPA's rules. now if he didn't like it, or it was against his idea of that the spirit should have made something different. ways to make that COF equal. add a target to the first array (more steel or paper). a tac load off the clock. ..or on but thats gay... before leaving cover. Require everyone to started loaded only to 6 rounds.(In which case i would have done exactly what you did with any gun). I like having higher round counts in IDPA stages.... like near 18 on each. when done properly it links together a whole bunch of little skill tests. the number of rounds also is because i have a bit of ipsc in my heart :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Paul, did you get a penalty here? No, I may be slow to shoot but I can be very quick to sign my score sheet (sometimes too quick)! The stage designer thought I should have gotten a procedural. There was some discussion, but no resolution until now. Thanks all! Paul What possible PE was the stage designer thinking?! MP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Did you shoot the 3 IDPA targets while moving from one point of cover to another? You could have gotten a procedural for not shooting from cover unless the COF said to shoot on the move. I would have fired one shot at the steel then 5 shots at the IDPA targets and done my reload then just like you did. My use of cover might have been different depending on stage instructions. And I never give auto shooters a chance to rest. They have to keep up with me if they want to win. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 Bill, Aha! That might be where I could have gotten stung! The course description said only "as they become visible". Yes, I did shoot the targets when moving from one point of cover to another. By the time I ran dry I was behind cover again. Now, we're kind of a new IDPA club, and I'm just returning to IDPA after about a year's hiatus. Most of us come from an IPSC background. As a matter of fact I think you could say that our club is an IDPA club for IPSC shooters. We still are learning all the ins and outs and differences between the two disciplines and trying to sort them out. So far it looks to me like the course description in IDPA should not leave much to the shooter's discretion, thus making everyone shoot the same way. I also saw this mentioned in another thread. So if that's what we have to do then so be it. After all, we want the ratio of fun to frustration to be as high as possible! Thanks again for the input. (Mark, I think the course designer was thinking of a Failure to do right for me). Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I don't think you deserved a FTDR penalty. I may have given you a procedural penalty though. It depends on the stage design and how you shot it. How long were you exposed to targets #2 and #3 while on the move? Should you have shot them in tactical sequence or tactical priority? Did you neutralize target #3 with the single round you engaged it with? The course description should have stated that you were to engage the targets from behind cover, if that is what they wanted you to do. The rules say that if cover is available it must be used. That is a statement that is unreasonably strict in my opinion. If more than one shooting position exists in the COF you should be able to shoot on the move, if you don't violate the exposure rule. Besides, IDPA encourages stages where the shooter engages targets on the move. It can't both encourage and penalized at the same time. That is why it is important to word the course description correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Sounds to me like the COF was not "6 shot revolver neutral" either. WRONG! Anyone shooting a "big round thang" should be competitive with the autoloaders (and not just the other revolvers) on a properly configured COF WRONG AGAIN Revolver "Neutral" means that is doenst make it impossible for a BRT to shoot a CoF. Like a Disapearing target that activates after round 5 and requires 3 to neutralize and is gone in 1.5 seconds. THAT is NOT revolver Neutral. Having them do a reload that no one shooting an auto will have to do is just fine! They DONT compete against the Slab Sides! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 OK, OK, let's not go down that 6 round neutral road again. It's been beaten to death. I'm happy when the COF is 6 round neutral and I look on it like a challenge when they're not, hence the reason I started this thread!!! Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 Revolver "Neutral" means that is doenst make it impossible for a BRT to shoot a CoF. Like a Disapearing target that activates after round 5 and requires 3 to neutralize and is gone in 1.5 seconds. I agree with this. They DONT compete against the Slab Sides! I DO!!!! LOL Phara, Rule 19 says If cover is available the shooter must use it. If the shooter doesn't immediately move to cover when the SO yells "COVER" the penalty is one procedural. However it sounds like you might have been circumventing the spirit or rationale of the stage by the use of inappropriate technique. That is FTDR. It all depends on the wording of the stage description. You said earlier that it was "as they become visible". Probably the steel and the 3 IDPA targets should have been engaged before moving to the next wall. If you guys are IPSC shooters wanting some excitement out of IDPA the COF descriptions can work for you if written correctly. For example: the stage you just shot could have read like this; Engage the steel plate through the window. Then move toward better cover at the next wall. While moving 3 more bad guys appear and must be engaged on the move. IDPA rules actually leave a lot of room for match designers. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 Thanks for the clarification, I think our club has, over time come to think that as long as you shoot a target on the move, then you don't have to be behind cover unless it is stated. I'm not sure where this came from but this could be the source of a lot of our issues! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Revolver "Neutral" means that is doenst make it impossible for a BRT to shoot a CoF. Like a Disapearing target that activates after round 5 and requires 3 to neutralize and is gone in 1.5 seconds. I agree with this. They DONT compete against the Slab Sides! I DO!!!! LOL Bill Nesbitt Bill, Maybe I should have said Slab sides dont compete against THEM (BRTS) Cause I agree with you, I do too when I shoot a BRT. BUT they dont shoot against the BRTs.... BTW you dont shoot a BRT you shoot a MRT! medium! later! LP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Another interesting omission of the LGB is that is no definition of “6 shot revolver neutral”. In fact the phase appears only once in the book in this sentence: “Every effort will be made to keep all courses six (6) shot revolver neutral.” What is it exactly? Anybody have anything except an opinion on this? What is it in your opinion? Technically I suppose that the revolvers don’t compete against the autoloaders but every time I do the stats by division everyone wants to know the rank overall. Be safe, have fun...shoot to win, geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted July 15, 2004 Author Share Posted July 15, 2004 geezer-lock, Technically I suppose that the revolvers don’t compete against the autoloaders but every time I do the stats by division everyone wants to know the rank overall. This has got to be human nature at work. I don't care how many times I've heard "We all really only compete against guns in our own division.", it seems that everyone wants to know how they did against everybody at the match! And that is why a level playing field for all guns, is important to a lot of people. Even if it's not supposed to matter in IDPA, it still does to a lot of people, and because of that we'll always have discussions about it. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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