High Lord Gomer Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I got to thinking about this common wording (I have used it myself). It is not unusual to see "Engage targets as they become available" in the WSB. This implies that I could be assessed a PE if I do not engage a target when it becomes available but rather wait until I reach a different spot to engage it. Thoughts? I know that I won't include that phrase anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Yeah, it is kind of an old school way of saying it...because "that is how we've always done it." I like getting rid of it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Sorry guys ... All it means is that you can't shoot them through a wall, prop, or other target. They are not "available" at those points. (Even if you CAN see through that snow fence!) Keep in mind the rules are a SET ... Sometimes it takes more than one rule to make sense of everything. Here we need to remember 1.1.5 - Freestyle. You can shoot them any time they are available, but YOU choose when and where (from within those available positions) to engage them. With the possible exception of Classifiers and Standards, when and where you shoot a target from is up to you ... Not even the WSB can change that. (Level I exemptions are an exception, BTW.) T'ain't broke ... Don't need fixin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I got to thinking about this common wording (I have used it myself). It is not unusual to see "Engage targets as they become available" in the WSB. This implies that I could be assessed a PE if I do not engage a target when it becomes available but rather wait until I reach a different spot to engage it. Thoughts? I know that I won't include that phrase anymore. Otherwise, shooters might engage targets when they aren't available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I reckon it's just a higher brow way of saying "shoot 'em as you see 'em". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanjacket Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I reckon it's just a higher brow way of saying "shoot 'em as you see 'em". It is. OP was trying to debate the timeframe in which you should "shoot 'em" after you "see 'em". As in, if we do say "shoot 'em AS you see em", then why are we not forced to shoot them immediately as they come into view. I believe Shutz has answered that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 In some other thread, there was a post by George Jones. basically he said he hates that phrase "engage targets as they become visible". I think George is an RO instructor with the NROI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Sorry guys ... All it means is that you can't shoot them through a wall, prop, or other target. They are not "available" at those points. ... T'ain't broke ... Don't need fixin'. We have rules that cover that...if somebody is so confused. (I am pretty sure it won't make a difference to the newbies...one way or the other.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Sorry guys ... All it means is that you can't shoot them through a wall, prop, or other target. They are not "available" at those points. (Even if you CAN see through that snow fence!) Keep in mind the rules are a SET ... Sometimes it takes more than one rule to make sense of everything. Here we need to remember 1.1.5 - Freestyle. You can shoot them any time they are available, but YOU choose when and where (from within those available positions) to engage them. With the possible exception of Classifiers and Standards, when and where you shoot a target from is up to you ... Not even the WSB can change that. (Level I exemptions are an exception, BTW.) T'ain't broke ... Don't need fixin'. Agreed. Never in my life would I have read that to require the shooter to engage the targets at the very first moment they were seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 It occurred to me as being much more appropriate in an IDPA-style match where we did require that targets be engaged "as" they became available. In the future, I will use: "Engage targets from where they are available within the designated shooting area." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Stage Procedure: After Start Signal, Engage targets with sufficient rounds to score. The following is 'understood' You cannot engage targets that are not visible, you must engage targets only from the designated areas such as from within the Free Fire Zone. Failure to engage a target has a defined penalty as actually does not engaging a target with sufficient rounds although I can't seem to get this any shorter, so far. We all know and the rules clearly state that you cannot engage a target from outside the FFZ or from too close in the case of steel and the demarcations for that distance are set in the rules. You cannot engage targets prior to the start, but we do have to 'start' somewhere here. If we were really anal, saying upon start signal would require us to engage targets immediately assuming they were visible. So... Stage Procedure: After Start Signal, Engage targets with sufficient rounds to score. Unless there is some IPSC Monkey Moves to perform during the stage such as carrying a briefcase and placing it in a particular spot or doing something that activates a target or something similar. Reduce the number of words to the minimum. There is far less ambiguity that way and less for the DRLs of the world to pick at. Then again, I could always be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Stage Procedure: After Start Signal, Engage targets with sufficient rounds to score. Isn't that a lot more wordy than just listing the stage as Comstock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 [...] Stage Procedure: After Start Signal, Engage targets with sufficient rounds to score. Unless there is some IPSC Monkey Moves to perform during the stage such as carrying a briefcase and placing it in a particular spot or doing something that activates a target or something similar. Reduce the number of words to the minimum. There is far less ambiguity that way and less for the DRLs of the world to pick at. Jim My favorite was the World Shoot in Bali, 2008. All 36 stages - Same instruction: "On signal, shoot targets." EVERYTHING else was understood ... 2 rounds each (unless specified otherwise), withing the shooting area, don't shoot through walls and props, etc., etc., etc. Strange ... Folks from all those different countries (over a thousand of 'em) and NO ONE had any problem understanding what was understood! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanjacket Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 My favorite was the World Shoot in Bali, 2008. All 36 stages - Same instruction: "On signal, shoot targets." HAHA. Straight and to the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 My favorite was the World Shoot in Bali, 2008. All 36 stages - Same instruction: "On signal, shoot targets." EVERYTHING else was understood ... 2 rounds each (unless specified otherwise), withing the shooting area, don't shoot through walls and props, etc., etc., etc. Strange ... Folks from all those different countries (over a thousand of 'em) and NO ONE had any problem understanding what was understood! I cannot argue the simplicity of this. It is about as brief as one can get. Perhaps>> Beep, Shoot? but seriously, I like "On Signal, Shoot Targets". Of course we still need to discuss the various Monkey Motions that may be required of the shooter. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Pledger Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 [...] Stage Procedure: After Start Signal, Engage targets with sufficient rounds to score. Unless there is some IPSC Monkey Moves to perform during the stage such as carrying a briefcase and placing it in a particular spot or doing something that activates a target or something similar. Reduce the number of words to the minimum. There is far less ambiguity that way and less for the DRLs of the world to pick at. Jim My favorite was the World Shoot in Bali, 2008. All 36 stages - Same instruction: "On signal, shoot targets." EVERYTHING else was understood ... 2 rounds each (unless specified otherwise), withing the shooting area, don't shoot through walls and props, etc., etc., etc. Strange ... Folks from all those different countries (over a thousand of 'em) and NO ONE had any problem understanding what was understood! Mike, The stage briefing for WS Bali was simple and straight to the point. Maybe because the RM is a man of few words also. Some WSB I have seen end up confusing people more. On stage 36 the WSB also stated you must stay inside the canoe while engaging the targets, you wouldnt believe how many people asked can I have one foot outside the canoe when shooting. Cheers .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 [...] Stage Procedure: After Start Signal, Engage targets with sufficient rounds to score. Unless there is some IPSC Monkey Moves to perform during the stage such as carrying a briefcase and placing it in a particular spot or doing something that activates a target or something similar. Reduce the number of words to the minimum. There is far less ambiguity that way and less for the DRLs of the world to pick at. Jim My favorite was the World Shoot in Bali, 2008. All 36 stages - Same instruction: "On signal, shoot targets." EVERYTHING else was understood ... 2 rounds each (unless specified otherwise), withing the shooting area, don't shoot through walls and props, etc., etc., etc. Strange ... Folks from all those different countries (over a thousand of 'em) and NO ONE had any problem understanding what was understood! Mike, The stage briefing for WS Bali was simple and straight to the point. Maybe because the RM is a man of few words also. Some WSB I have seen end up confusing people more. On stage 36 the WSB also stated you must stay inside the canoe while engaging the targets, you wouldnt believe how many people asked can I have one foot outside the canoe when shooting. Cheers .... OK ... Then 35 of the 36 stages! But ya' gotta' admit: Chepit kept it simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Never in my life would I have read that to require the shooter to engage the targets at the very first moment they were seen. With all the "gamers" in USPSA and various opinions about what rules mean, I can easily see how someone would interpret this rule to mean you have to shoot the target the first time you see it. I don't agree with it, but I can see how someone else could think that. I like WSBs that say "On signal, engage targets from within the shooting area". "On signal, shoot targets", is about as simple as you can get. I like it, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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