Sac Law Man Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Prior to shooting our local IDPA match on Sun 7/4 I was invitded to do a walk through of the stages to ensure they were compliant with the rules. Stage two had us starting kneeling next to a dummy pretending to give him CPR, at the buzzer you were to enage three targets which were down range at approx 5, 7, and 8 yards in tac priority. You then drag the dummy to the right with weak hand, shoot one target on the move with your strong hand, then continue to the right, place the dummy safely behind cover, then engage three more targets from behind cover. reload as necessary. Not a bad stage except I am a lefty, and the stage originally called for shooters to start on the right side of the dummy if facing down range. Obviously a righty designed the stage. I made the suggestion that shooters be allowed to start on either side of the dummy, so neither right or left handed shooter had to reach over their body to drag this dummy. the stage designer agreed, and admitted he didn't take lefties into account..No big deal.. Well, when my group reached the stage the start position had changed. The powers that be had decided there were several shooters who didn't want to start in a kneeling position. The start position now was standing, holding the dummy up, at signal drop dummy and leave it there. Reasons for the change being age, or medical. So here is he question, should we change the whole scenario for a few shooters or allow them to start differently because of a disability..Were talking about a match with 60+ shooters..I understand its a game, but some of the scenarios should be a little bit challanging..You think????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Was the issue about starting kneeling, was it about trying to stand, lift and drag the dummy, both?? How heavy was the dummy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Hmmmm...don't change it for the guys that can't drag the dummy...but, do change it for those that shoot with their left hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 Vincent, I believe the issue was starting from the kneeling position, then having to stand. The dummy was mens clothing stuufed with rags,,maybe 10-15 pounds altogether.. Flexmoney, after I wrote the post I thought some will think that my post contradicted itself..The point is this,,we all shoot IDPA because we like to compete. If that weren't true, how many of us would shoot matches if there were no classes, ranks or scores? We want to see how we measure up against our peers and our past performances..So when I look at a stage and see a distinct disadvantage for a lefty or a righty, in the spirit of competition I try to make it neutral. I know darn well that as a lefty, if I designed a stage that favored lefties, righties would be squawking like a bunch of old hens...The purpose of my post was to survey whether or not we should drastically alter a stage for one or two shooters as opposed to letting them shoot it differently, not because they are lefty or righty, but becasue they have a bad knee or are older.. In a real life scenario, I would have a choice which way to run to cover, or how to drag a dummy...But if I have a bad knee, and I am getting shot at, you better believe I am gunna hit the deck or dive fo cover..Make sense??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Rules for Course Design page 18: "All courses of fire must either simulate a possible real life scenario or test skills that might reasonable be used in a real life self-defense confrontation." Dragging someone to cover will engaging targets seems like a reasonable scenario. Course design rationale page 19 "It may be noted that older shooters will be slower on this than younger ones, or a person with a prior knee injury will not be able to do this technique as well as someone with good knees. This is a fact of life, and will be exactly the same in a real life self-defense scenario." This seems like it is tough luck for the people who can't drag the simulated "downed man" with any sort of speed. Which side of the dummy you start CPR on would seem like a matter a preference to the person performing the CPR unless there was a physical obstacle preventing them from doing it. Course design rationale page 21 "Stupid is stupid. Claiming that it will be the same for everyone is a lame way of rationalizing a poor, silly, or stupid stare or course of fire. Anyone using the line "it is the same for everyone" to justify a stupid or tactically unsound stage should not be allowed to run ot design any stage of fire in IDPA. Dropping the simulate "downed man" in the open to engage targets seems stupid. That is of course unless you didn't care about the "downed man" in which case why would you be carrying him/her in the first place. note: items in bold are from Online IDPA Rulebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 Short Round, Thanks for the reply, you hit the nail on the head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Course design rationale page 19 "It may be noted that older shooters will be slower on this than younger ones, or a person with a prior knee injury will not be able to do this technique as well as someone with good knees. This is a fact of life, and will be exactly the same in a real life self-defense scenario." It's worth noting this quote is being taken out of context. It refers to requiring shooters to drop to a knee when shooting around low cover, nothing else. On the other hand, we have this statment from page 17: Emphasis will not be placed on physical ability, but rather on shooting and gun handling skills. Personally, this stage as described seems like a bit of a silly scenario to me. Opinions may differ on that matter, and that's cool. If it turned out we had shooters at the match with genuine physical disabilities, I'd either change the scenario before anyone had a chance to shoot it - which is how the MD handled it in this case - or simply let the physically challenged negotiate the course differently. If their knees are in that bad a shape, it's not like they're in any danger of winning, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I could maybe see some complaints if the dummy was really heavy, but a kneeling start with a 10-15lb dummy seems OK to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Leave the scenario in tact. weak hand means weak hand your just gonna do it different if your left hand dominant.. thats why we don't say right and left. if they are unable to comply with the COF there is a box for that. give them a procedural. suuure it's going to hurt their score a little... and if they want to leave their buddy laying in the dirt in a gun battle.... that too is their choice. I have a great sympathy for handycapped or disabled persons. but the life and the sport does not. Let them start crouched (one procedural) get them to comply as much as possible. if they can't drag the dummy maybe they aren't in good enough condition to shoot? when i design courses i leave little holes to gain time. like wether you want to start from prone or supine position. which side of the dummy you want to be on, etc. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 if they are unable to comply with the COF there is a box for that. give them a procedural. Good point. If I ever found myself in that position (knock wood) I'd probably just tell the SO I'd eat a procedural to start from a position my body could handle. if they can't drag the dummy maybe they aren't in good enough condition to shoot? Well, let's not get crazy. Older/phsyically challenged people are at a high risk of being attacked, and need to practice their defensive skills. I can't see telling someone, "You're not in good enough shape to shoot this match." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 It refers to requiring shooters to drop to a knee when shooting around low cover, nothing else. "nothing else" ... that's interesting. I was thinking the spirit of that rule would apply in general and would be consistent with the Spirit of IDPA. The "real world" self-defense would be the most important thing. Maybe I should read and re-read the PURPOSE & PRINCIPLES sections of the rulebook on pages 1 & 2. I could maybe see some complaints if the dummy was really heavy, but a kneeling start with a 10-15lb dummy seems OK to me. I think this makes it not a physical ability issue. My 90lb mother can drag a 20lb bag of rice across the floor even with the partially torn ligaments in her left shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 IDPA Course Design Rules & Rationale: Course designers MUST refrain from designing courses of fire that will substantially disadvantage senior and mobility-challenged shooters. A solution would be 2 strings for the original stage ; string 1: start and shoot from kneeling. String 2:drag , shoot/move and all the rest. We have a regular who does all his shooting from a wheelchair - and he doesn't complain one bit when there are more physically demanding problems to deal with. I think it's something in our water. just a thought, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron durham Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Hi Sac Lawman: You know I luv ya dearly but how in the world can you be upset about changing that stage? It didn't hurt one thing, it went fast like it was supposed to, you know we had a banquet to go to. You know about a third of our shooters are seniors and porkers with bad legs. By being able to stand, it put us on a fairly even keel and everybody had a good time. This real life scenario stuff that I am getting so sick of hearing is B.S. We are supposed to be there having fun, enjoying each other's company and competing on a fairly even basis.......so you want to start some guy out on all fours, hell in my case I have to put the gun down to push up so I can stand up. I think you really need to rethink your position......you know time is clicking for all of you and I agree with Mark's last post.....maybe some of you need to read it sometime. Well I guess you can say you struck a nerve. Remember, us ole guys pay to shoot just like you younger guys. This is not military shooting, self-defense......remember. Supposedly short quick stages, not a foot race. Ron Durham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted July 7, 2004 Author Share Posted July 7, 2004 O.K. lets see if I can bail myself out of this one..(Ron in no way shape, or form was this intended to insult anyone, its just my opinion). However, in our local matches we NEVER shoot from the prone position, rarely shoot from kneeling, and now are changing the scenarios and ultimately the integrity of the scenario. Yes our club does have several shooters who are considered seniors, but remember there are many who are younger (I'm 37) who want a bit of a challange, and the oppurtunity to better ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Course designers MUST refrain from designing courses of fire that will substantially disadvantage senior and mobility-challenged shooters. It says it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I do few stages that have people start kneeling and get up. It tends to create some issues with some of the shooters, with them falling over or just not being able to get up. It does not mean that folks who do such stages are wrong, they aren't. Not by a long shot. I believe you need a contingecy in place for those who cannot kneel. Some clubs will do a procedural and permit a standing start, others feel they are handicapped enough by not being all that mobile in the first place. By biggest concern with dragging a dummy (beyond the obvious safety concerns) is the tempation for a competitor to conveniently "forget" to drag the dummy, figuring the time savings is well worth the procedural penalty. That's a slippery slope there, you almost have to threaten a FTDR to the shooter who forgets to drag the dummy. Never did that, but have thought about it. But neither are the issues at hand here . The problem here is the MD kept taking all this advice from all these people and kept changing the stage to accodomate everyone. You cannot do that without losing some if not all of the integrity of the stage. Good stages may become better from the advice of a shooter or two, but rarely does a good stage come from committee thinking. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron durham Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Hi Ted: Good post on your part. I tend to do the same thing myself as far as designing the stage. I would never start a guy out in the middle of the dirt on all fours. I think I could come up with something a little more unique that would accomodate all folks. Just a little thought in stage design.....for example, put your kneeling or prone at the end of the stage.....always make sure the person has something to grab onto in case he has to pull himself up to move to another position. Just a little thought could make it so much easier for everybody. Now about changing these stage designs in this particular case was done for a reason, we had a banquet and the Match Designer felt changing it would make it go much faster. We have a committee that goes thru each stage after designers have set them up and changing it for safety issues and other concerns are not unusual. I back it 100%. Understand some of the stage designers are brand new at this and changes are necessary. The SO's are there when the changes are made, this eliminates problems with the stage design. I just can't buy the attitude that the ole farts can't cut it ..... just give them a procedural. Man, is winning that important to some folks? How about good stage design so that we are on halfway equal basis. Well that is my two cents. Some of you guys probably think I should join AARP....that is a thought maybe I could get them to sponsor me. Ha. Ron Durham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 As someone who has "Bad Knees" let me respond. If I can not figure a way to do the stage as designed, I will take a procedural. I will advise the SO of the fact I can not do it as designed and explain what I am going to do in a quiet voice so as not to cause a scene. The last S&W Winter Championship had several kneeling stages. Took me 2 days and a lot of ice paks to recover but it was a great match. The knee problem is mine and not the stage designers. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron durham Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Hi Mr. Round Gun Shooter: Well good for you.....bite the bullet and go home with sore knees doesn't bother you? More power to you; however, you are not the only person with bad knees and I prefer not to go home with sore knees. As I said in an earlier post, at least at our Club at least 30-40% of us are at the end of our life cycle.....like getting old. We have extremely good gun handling skills and you shoot with the best of them and are there to compete and we just want a fair break on stage design which is just not that hard. I outlined my views in the last post. Now, I have been to five State matches and not one time did we start on all fours or in a kneeling position. If there were any, it was at the end of the stage. The Club that I belong to let some of the inexperienced stage designers set up a match about a year ago, nothing but run, kneel and run. You would think it was an obstacle course with no rhyme or reason. Guess what? Some of the young fast shooters like MM and SS were top shooters, then you looked at the scores and you could figure out why. I shot 15 down points and was beat by a guy who dropped 50 points and there is where the two physical stage design goes off track. I know that is not what we are talking about here but that is an example of what could happen. I will say it again, there is no way that ole guys can keep up with young guys when it comes to sprinting from A to B, that is a given but don't handicap an ole fella by putting him in a position where they lose 4-5 seconds just trying to get up. Well that is my view. Ron Durham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 This is a tough issue. There are lots of thing to consider...right vs. left handed, bad knees, heavy-set shooters, short/tall...etc. Heck, I recently came around to the idea of painting all the steel targets white...as there are shooters that are color-blind and it (really) does take them longer to "find" the targets. As a stage designer, it is a tricky balance. In real life, it doesn't matter if you are right or left handed, it doesn't matter if you are color-blind. A good goal might be to keep the stages as practical as possible..without alienating a large portion of your customers. I think the key is...know your customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT FOLLOWS Course designers MUST refrain from designing courses of fire that will substantially disadvantage senior and mobility-challenged shooters. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/...sh/mu/must.html Must Verb 1. Be obliged, required, or forced to http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/...re/refrain.html Refrain Verb 1. Not do something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted July 7, 2004 Author Share Posted July 7, 2004 I think we can keep going around on this subject all day long. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion...By the way Ron, Ed designed that particular stage, hes probably in his mid fifties, and has bad knees... I still love you though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Based on feedback from my shooters and the club, kneeling and going prone are used as finishing positions. It's felt that non-athletic types trying to recover and continue with a stage from either position with a loaded gun could become a safety issue. My stages rarely require kneeling, and never require the prone position. I look at a match as a shooting skills challenge, not an agility test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRD Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Good discussion. I think I can add "don't start from the kneeling or prone position" to our how-to-design-stages handbook out here easy enough. But kneeling is pretty much a staple shooting position...there are two kneeling positions in the classifier itself for a total of 12 rounds (more than 10% of the total shots fired). One of those positions is assumed after a 5-yard run. "Knowing your customers" and not designing stages that "substantially disadvantage" the relatively mobility-impaired seems easy enough, but it's not going to always be completely possible to remove every conceivable stumbling point for every conceivable physical hardship. We also have wheelchair-bound competitors at our club, as well as those with bad knees, bad eyes, etc. and it's not possible to accomodate everyone on every stage. That's the fact. If you have a 'special need', you will have occasion to take a PE and save your knees, back, whatever. An occasional kneeling position does not a 'track-and-field event' make. That said, I don't think that a prohibition on kneeling positions at the beginning of, or in the middle of, a stage is out of the realm of possibility. - Gabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Not to be sounding rude in any way but IMHO, if someone cannot simply kneel down to shoot, then they might be in the wrong sport to begin with. The IDPA philosophy stresses "Real-World" scenarios, I think a simple stage where you have to start kneeling is well within the IDPA principles. If someone cannot assume a start position within reason, then they should be given a procedural. As long as start positions which give the advantage to younger, healthier shooters doesn't become the norm, then there is no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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