RAZZ Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I understand that the multi-gun Nationals are using time-plus scoring this year. Reading the MG rules, that means you only need 1 A, or two hits anywhere on a paper target to neutralize a target. Is that for both handgun and rifle? And if that's the case, why do the stage descriptions require (for example) "16 rounds rifle" on a stage where there are 8 paper targets? Wouldn't it only be 8 rounds minimum--1 per target? I just want to make sure I'm not missing something, as I'm new to 3-gun. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smoothdraw Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 The rounds count is only for ammunition planning. Actually you have to bring twice of it for potential re-shoots. The new USPSA MG rule is like what we are doing in 3gun Nation. So yeah paper targets needs 1A or 2 anywhere to avoid penalty time scores. And the points is the total time plus all penalties. That simple. Hope that helps. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nheiny13 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Ok, so I understand the 1A or two on target concept, is Time plus scoring. But is the end result/final score your total time with raw time plus penalties? Or is the top shooter of the stage rewarded with 100 percent/points and everyone else is awarded percentage points from the top shooter on that particular stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenlu Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Ok, so I understand the 1A or two on target concept, is Time plus scoring. But is the end result/final score your total time with raw time plus penalties? Or is the top shooter of the stage rewarded with 100 percent/points and everyone else is awarded percentage points from the top shooter on that particular stage? The 'time-plus'-time for a stage is raw-time + penalties - enhanced value target (if there are any enhanced value targets, these points/sec will be subtracted to give you a better score). All time-plus stage have 100p (and the time-plus time can be max 500sec or min 0 sec). The shooter with smallest time-plus time on a stage wins the stage and get 100% or 100p. Lets say if a shooter has a time-plus time of 20.5 sec and this is the best (smallest for the stage), if another competitor gets a time-plus time of 27,3 sec this will give him/her a percentage of 20.5/27.3 = 75.09% or 75.09p for the stage. Then from stage --> match you add points to match points, highest match points get 100% and so on... / Jens Edited March 28, 2012 by jenlu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Some clubs, do just add the rawtime, bonuses and penalties, then the total lowest time for the match wins.. persnally I prefer 100 points per stage And some matches also weight stages, so a stage with 1 gun = 100 points, 2 guns = 125, 3 guns = 150 and one last small point.. normally it's one A or B, but I have shot some that only use As It's always best to check each match Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 jenlu is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nheiny13 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Ok, so I understand the 1A or two on target concept, is Time plus scoring. But is the end result/final score your total time with raw time plus penalties? Or is the top shooter of the stage rewarded with 100 percent/points and everyone else is awarded percentage points from the top shooter on that particular stage? The 'time-plus'-time for a stage is raw-time + penalties - enhanced value target (if there are any enhanced value targets, these points/sec will be subtracted to give you a better score). All time-plus stage have 100p (and the time-plus time can be max 500sec or min 0 sec). The shooter with smallest time-plus time on a stage wins the stage and get 100% or 100p. Lets say if a shooter has a time-plus time of 20.5 sec and this is the best (smallest for the stage), if another competitor gets a time-plus time of 27,3 sec this will give him/her a percentage of 20.5/27.3 = 75.09% or 75.09p for the stage. Then from stage --> match you add points to match points, highest match points get 100% and so on... / Jens Ok, I understand it now, but can someone explain the benefit of doing the percentage points of the stage? The reason why I ask is because one of my friends who is no doubt a very top notch shooter was below another very top notch shooter in a match. My friend shot a very solid consistent match, while the other shooter smoked a lot of stages but on two stages had gun problems which did not allow him to finish both stages costing him several hundred seconds in penalties. The shooter that had the gun problems finished higher in the overall scores than my friend who shot very well and consistent. Can someone explain this to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenlu Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Ok, I understand it now, but can someone explain the benefit of doing the percentage points of the stage? The reason why I ask is because one of my friends who is no doubt a very top notch shooter was below another very top notch shooter in a match. My friend shot a very solid consistent match, while the other shooter smoked a lot of stages but on two stages had gun problems which did not allow him to finish both stages costing him several hundred seconds in penalties. The shooter that had the gun problems finished higher in the overall scores than my friend who shot very well and consistent. Can someone explain this to me? In a stage you use the % to give you relative points to the winner that always get max points on the stage - but in the end you get points for the stage. Then on the match you summarize the points and the most points win, second most come in second place and so on. On match the winner gets 100% and then you give a shooter his match percentage based on how many percent of the winner points he/she has. So the ordering based on match points or match percent is the same. Myself I just use the percentage to see how tough a match it was and if I improved or not compared to last year. it is hard to tell about your example - if the guy that came in first zeroed two small stages this might not have all that much impact if he was great on all the others. Since the match is on points a large stage with 150p is as important as 5 x 30p stages. This is partially the reason for the balance on 3 short - 2 medium - 1 long stage in a match (at least it is something like this). In tme-plus this is somewhat lost as all stages give 100p but then you can add Enhanced value targets to ensure there is challenges and choices even within these 100p that you need to decide upon. Overall consistency pays off before shooting above your capability in most cases - just look at Erik Grauffel who competes on 95% of his capability and always shots extremely well and safe and never ever really crash and burn on any stages... Training he goes 110% but competing he goes safe. / Jens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 The stages he smoked everybody with he finished higher than them, than the ones where he had problems. Its similar in thinking to USPSA pistol matches. you beat me by 2% on 4 out of 5 stages. If I beat you by 20% on the 5th, I'm going to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Ok, I understand it now, but can someone explain the benefit of doing the percentage points of the stage? The reason why I ask is because one of my friends who is no doubt a very top notch shooter was below another very top notch shooter in a match. My friend shot a very solid consistent match, while the other shooter smoked a lot of stages but on two stages had gun problems which did not allow him to finish both stages costing him several hundred seconds in penalties. The shooter that had the gun problems finished higher in the overall scores than my friend who shot very well and consistent. Can someone explain this to me? If it was ordinary scoring, this is easily explainable by the other shooting doing bad on two low-point stages. If it was time plus, he must have done enough better than your friend that his overall score added up to be more. Example: your friend worked out to 40% on each of 4 stages, for 160pts. Other shooter got 80%, 80%, 5%, 5% and he's at 170pts. With time plus and the 100 points per stage, all stages weigh in equally. With normal scoring an 8 round speed shoot stage weighs in 1/4 as much as a 32 rd field course. Edited March 28, 2012 by DarthMuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Ok, I understand it now, but can someone explain the benefit of doing the percentage points of the stage? The reason why I ask is because one of my friends who is no doubt a very top notch shooter was below another very top notch shooter in a match. My friend shot a very solid consistent match, while the other shooter smoked a lot of stages but on two stages had gun problems which did not allow him to finish both stages costing him several hundred seconds in penalties. The shooter that had the gun problems finished higher in the overall scores than my friend who shot very well and consistent. Can someone explain this to me? The rationale is balance. Say you have a 20 second pistol stage, a 60 second 2 gun stage and a 160 second Long range rifle stage. Indexing them all on 100 points make it so the MD/RM have to put in less work at keeping the total stage times balanced. If you run total time, the pistol stage might as well get tossed as it would only be worth 1/3 of the 2 gun stage and 1/8th of the LR stage. If total time, a pistol expert gets penalized and the LR rifle expert gets a huge benefit (in general). 3G/MG is supposed to maintain some balance between the weapon platforms and even the varied skill sets within the 3 platforms. Some matches are pistol heavy, some rifle heavy, and we all know that and pick matches accordingly, to some degree, but total time is way too slanted towards the slower types of stages and needlessly penalizes the pistol wizards. Rifle is my best platform, but I still would not want to see total time 3G matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevyoneton Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the replies, but I was a first timer at the same match as Razz and still am unsure on the answer to one of his questions. Rifle AND Pistol, 1 hit in A or two anywhere to neutralize? Edited March 29, 2012 by chevyoneton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Thanks for the replies, but I was a first timer at the same match as Razz and still am unsure on the answer to one of his questions. Rifle AND Pistol, 1 hit in A or two anywhere to neutralize? Weapon platform does not matter in USPSA MG Time-Plus. It is 1 A or B hit, OR 2 hits in any scoring zones to avoid penalty on ALL paper targets. Steel must fall, frangibles must break, and self indicating targets must indicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke8401 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The 'time-plus'-time for a stage is raw-time + penalties - enhanced value target (if there are any enhanced value targets, these points/sec will be subtracted to give you a better score). All time-plus stage have 100p (and the time-plus time can be max 500sec or min 0 sec). The shooter with smallest time-plus time on a stage wins the stage and get 100% or 100p. Lets say if a shooter has a time-plus time of 20.5 sec and this is the best (smallest for the stage), if another competitor gets a time-plus time of 27,3 sec this will give him/her a percentage of 20.5/27.3 = 75.09% or 75.09p for the stage. Then from stage --> match you add points to match points, highest match points get 100% and so on... "All time plus stage have 100p," % this, % that Maybe because I am/was mainly an IDPA shooter but I can't believe "Time Plus" isn't just: Time + penalties = low score wins. So even "Time Plus" is complicated! David E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The 'time-plus'-time for a stage is raw-time + penalties - enhanced value target (if there are any enhanced value targets, these points/sec will be subtracted to give you a better score). All time-plus stage have 100p (and the time-plus time can be max 500sec or min 0 sec). The shooter with smallest time-plus time on a stage wins the stage and get 100% or 100p. Lets say if a shooter has a time-plus time of 20.5 sec and this is the best (smallest for the stage), if another competitor gets a time-plus time of 27,3 sec this will give him/her a percentage of 20.5/27.3 = 75.09% or 75.09p for the stage. Then from stage --> match you add points to match points, highest match points get 100% and so on... "All time plus stage have 100p," % this, % that Maybe because I am/was mainly an IDPA shooter but I can't believe "Time Plus" isn't just: Time + penalties = low score wins. So even "Time Plus" is complicated! David E. This is true for each individual stage. They have to use the percentages so that certain stages don't carry more weight than others. Lowest time wins the stage and then subsequent scores are based from that time. Its not really that complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 "All time plus stage have 100p," % this, % that Maybe because I am/was mainly an IDPA shooter but I can't believe "Time Plus" isn't just: Time + penalties = low score wins. So even "Time Plus" is complicated! David E. David, for IDPA with realitvley low rounds counts and small time variations stage to stage, it does not make much of a difference. In 3G/MG, just won't work equitably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke8401 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 OK, I get it now, otherwise 1 or 2 stages could dictate the outcome. Makes since that way. Thanks, David E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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