Determining hits on Paper Targets

[Sarge]

Regarding 9.1.3 and 9.1.4:

9.1.3 Prematurely Patched Targets - If a target is prematurely patched or

taped, which prevents a Range Official from determining the actual

score, the Range Officer must order the competitor to reshoot the

course of fire.

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a

previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly

patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the target for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined.

The question came up if you should be able to go back and look at the previous shooters scoresheet to determine his hits on that target as a way of verifying the current competitors hits.

i.e Target has one A hit and two C hits currently. All 9mm holes. Current shooter shot twice only. There is no way by looking at the target which hits are his. Could you go back to previous shooter scores and see what his hits were on that target in order to rule out one hit?

Our thoughts were NO because there could always be the chance that the RO or the scorekeeper switched between shooters and scored the targets in a different order. But if you were the RO and you know the order you scored the targets could this technique be used to judge whether or not an accurate score can be determined?

The shooter did reshoot the stage anyway since one of our helpers pasted one of the holes prematurely. But for future reference does this technique sound legal or advisable?

[Nik Habicht]

I've heard opinions from both sides. If I were the CRO on a stage, I'd have to be very certain that I could obtain an accurate score by looking at the preceding shooter's scoresheet.....

In most typical scenarios, there's room for too many variables -- so if I couldn't score it to my satisfaction, reshoot....

[sperman]

There was a long thread on this a couple of years ago. Nik summarized the discussion pretty well.

[Chris Keen]

I found nothing in the NROI Rulings on the website, so I'd have to go with what Nik said. If there is ANY doubt in your mind as an RO that you may or may not have scored the previous shooters targets in the same order as the current shooter, issue a reshoot!

[Nik Habicht]

There are significant issues with using the scoresheets -- I'd probably be most comfortable if I was the CRO, and was on the clipboard for that squad. That's the only way I might be certain that the targets were recorded in perfect order and line up.....

There are target issues as well -- was that target not pasted, or did the shooter get close enough to blow pasters off? Are pasters less likely to stick due to environmental conditions? Has that target been poorly pasted/is too shot up and pasters fell off -- not necessarily the just applied pasters from the previous run.....

So, really I'd have to know a lot of info, with certainty....

A high level of confidence is not enough -- I'd order the reshoot in that case....

[Flexmoney]

There was a long thread on this a couple of years ago. Nik summarized the discussion pretty well.

http://www.brianenos...1

Starts at about post # 81, I'd guess.

[LPatterson]

Not sure that link can really apply since there is a gag order against RMI's answering rules questions. I don't recall anything in the rules that allows me to go back to prior score sheets for the score of a current target. If a competitors ammo is larger than a prior shooter then I might be able to find the right holes but the reverse might not be true. If in any doubt about the score of any target, I would ask for the assistance of my CRO or RM. Good guesses or I thinks do not work.

[hvsmith]

The answer is No, you cannot go back & look at the previous shooters scorecard. This question was posed at the RO class in Miamisburg this past weekend & Jay Worden clearly explained why you cannot go back - in short, this opportunity may not be given to each & every shooter where this could occur, & I know the 39 others who attended the class would have the same response.

[ihatepickles]

The answer is No, you cannot go back & look at the previous shooters scorecard. This question was posed at the RO class in Miamisburg this past weekend & Jay Worden clearly explained why you cannot go back - in short, this opportunity may not be given to each & every shooter where this could occur, & I know the 39 others who attended the class would have the same response.

Yeah, I was there and that's the rationale given by Jay Worden. I'm not convinced however that a competitor could not successfully arbitrate this call though. If the RO crew can't be sure that the previous competitor's target #6 is the same target #6 as the current competitor, than the previous scoresheet is useless and the arb would fail. However, if the crew was confident that the scorer could distinguish the exact score on a particular target (for the previous and current shooter), I think the previous scoresheet method would sustain arbitration.

With respect to Jay Worden and Gary Johnson who taught the class, I don't think the argument that this may not be possible for every shooter and therefore not valid to use for a single shooter is wrong. If this rationale were true, then a 9mm shooter with .45 caliber holes in their target could not be used as evidence of whose bullet holes belonged to whom. After all, every shooter in the match didn't have this scenario available to them therefore it shouldn't be permitted for this case.

I think as an RO, every consideration should be given to the shooter in situations that are not specifically spelled out by the rulebook.

[Sin-ster]

At one of our local matches, we often have a Stage Designer who loves high round count, complicated stages-- with "hidden" targets (legal of course) that entire squads of people have been known to miss, both in terms of engaging them and/or scoring them.

In recent months, when the stages he designs are of this intricate nature, he has taken to numbering the targets for the sake of easy and consistent scoring. Most squads have written down the hits accordingly, even if the RO's don't score the targets in order.

We expressly had this situation arise in my squad, and yours truly was on the clipboard. I immediately went back to the last score sheet and used it to score the targets.

9.1.4 supported my decision; I was 100% positive that the single C belonged to the current shooter, as the previous one had shot 2 As.

Had the targets not been numbered, it might have been a different story-- although again, if we were scoring the targets in a specific order and I was 100% sure of the consistency, I likely would have made the same call. Had someone else been on the clipboard previously, even if they were 100% positive, I would have rewarded a Reshoot.

I trust no one!

[Flexmoney]

The answer is No, you cannot go back & look at the previous shooters scorecard. This question was posed at the RO class in Miamisburg this past weekend & Jay Worden clearly explained why you cannot go back - in short, this opportunity may not be given to each & every shooter where this could occur, & I know the 39 others who attended the class would have the same response.

That is a silly rationalization. And, it is against the what the rule says (see other thread, linked above). Too bad it is being taught that way.

The rule clearly says to decide if you can determine an accurate score for the shooter..or NOT. Once you do so, act accordingly.

[LPatterson]

The answer is No, you cannot go back & look at the previous shooters scorecard. This question was posed at the RO class in Miamisburg this past weekend & Jay Worden clearly explained why you cannot go back - in short, this opportunity may not be given to each & every shooter where this could occur, & I know the 39 others who attended the class would have the same response.

That is a silly rationalization. And, it is against the what the rule says (see other thread, linked above). Too bad it is being taught that way.

The rule clearly says to decide if you can determine an accurate score for the shooter..or NOT. Once you do so, act accordingly.

I respectfully disagree because all an RO has to go by are the rules, not some posts on a forum. The rules tell me to look at a target and determine AN accurate score based ON that target. If I cannot or the shooter disagrees then it is time for me to ask for HELP in the form of the CRO or RM. Since there is a gag order on RMI's perhaps it should extend to rules making officials.

[Flexmoney]

The answer is No, you cannot go back & look at the previous shooters scorecard. This question was posed at the RO class in Miamisburg this past weekend & Jay Worden clearly explained why you cannot go back - in short, this opportunity may not be given to each & every shooter where this could occur, & I know the 39 others who attended the class would have the same response.

That is a silly rationalization. And, it is against the what the rule says (see other thread, linked above). Too bad it is being taught that way.

The rule clearly says to decide if you can determine an accurate score for the shooter..or NOT. Once you do so, act accordingly.

I respectfully disagree because all an RO has to go by are the rules, not some posts on a forum. The rules tell me to look at a target and determine AN accurate score based ON that target. If I cannot or the shooter disagrees then it is time for me to ask for HELP in the form of the CRO or RM. Since there is a gag order on RMI's perhaps it should extend to rules making officials.

Read the rule again. It says to use evidence to determine if you can get an accurate score.

[sperman]

Since there is a gag order on RMI's ...

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but there is no need for you to make this assertion in every post.

[LPatterson]

Since there is a gag order on RMI's ...

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but there is no need for you to make this assertion in every post.

It is not exactly every post and it may not be true but none of them have replied to deny it.

[LPatterson]

The answer is No, you cannot go back & look at the previous shooters scorecard. This question was posed at the RO class in Miamisburg this past weekend & Jay Worden clearly explained why you cannot go back - in short, this opportunity may not be given to each & every shooter where this could occur, & I know the 39 others who attended the class would have the same response.

That is a silly rationalization. And, it is against the what the rule says (see other thread, linked above). Too bad it is being taught that way.

The rule clearly says to decide if you can determine an accurate score for the shooter..or NOT. Once you do so, act accordingly.

I respectfully disagree because all an RO has to go by are the rules, not some posts on a forum. The rules tell me to look at a target and determine AN accurate score based ON that target. If I cannot or the shooter disagrees then it is time for me to ask for HELP in the form of the CRO or RM. Since there is a gag order on RMI's perhaps it should extend to rules making officials.

Read the rule again. It says to use evidence to determine if you can get an accurate score.

Actually I can't find that wording anywhere. I gues I am hung up by a literal interpretation of 9.1.4 ... If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is NOT OBVIOUS which hits were made by the competitor BEING SCORED, the affectted competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. I don't see anything there that gives me the ability to check some other score sheet for something that I obviously can't see by looking at that target. I believe we have an obligation to each and every shooter to score 'em as we see 'um.

Time to get off my soapbox and schedule myself for another RO class because I must be missing something somewhere.

[Sarge]

Actually I can't find that wording anywhere. I gues I am hung up by a literal interpretation of 9.1.4 ... If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is NOT OBVIOUS which hits were made by the competitor BEING SCORED, the affectted competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. I don't see anything there that gives me the ability to check some other score sheet for something that I obviously can't see by looking at that target. I believe we have an obligation to each and every shooter to score 'em as we see 'um.

Time to get off my soapbox and schedule myself for another RO class because I must be missing something somewhere.

No need to go that far. Just read the entire rule.

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a

previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly

patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the target for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra

scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected

competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. For the purpose of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and

the same

[LPatterson]

Actually I can't find that wording anywhere. I gues I am hung up by a literal interpretation of 9.1.4 ... If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is NOT OBVIOUS which hits were made by the competitor BEING SCORED, the affectted competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. I don't see anything there that gives me the ability to check some other score sheet for something that I obviously can't see by looking at that target. I believe we have an obligation to each and every shooter to score 'em as we see 'um.

Time to get off my soapbox and schedule myself for another RO class because I must be missing something somewhere.

No need to go that far. Just read the entire rule.

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a

previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly

patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the target for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra

scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon,

and it is not obvious which hits were made by the competitor being scored,

the affected competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. For the purpose of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and

the same

You added your color and I added mine, because there is no place in the rule book that I can find that tells me it is permissable to get another shooters score sheet in order to determine the current shooters score. I was a cop for a couple of years and Quality Control Inspector/Supervisor for several years and my bosses required that I show it to them exactly as written or it didn't go in a report. I am also from Missouri.

[Sarge]

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets –the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra

scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon,

and it is not obvious which hits were made by the competitor being scored,

I would argue that checking the prior competitor's score sheet could potentially make it very obvious which hits belong to whom

because there is no place in the rule book that I can find that tells me it is permissable to get another shooters score sheet in order to determine the current shooters score. We are not discussing Production rules from appendix D. I was a cop for a couple of years and Quality Control Inspector/Supervisor for several years and my bosses required that I show it to them exactly as written or it didn't go in a report. Has absolutely nothing to do with USPSA rule clarification.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Sarge

[Nik Habicht]

Kevin,

for what it's worth the NROI Seminars I sat in on in 2010 and 2011 taught the rule pretty much as Leroy outlined it. In other words, the RO's job is to score the target, using the target -- because there are too many potential variables to allow for anything else. I took that as a strong recommendation for a best practice in officiating.....

I won't rule out ever going to the scoresheet -- but it'll take extreme circumstances before I go that route.....

[mactiger]

We score targets, as we see them. That is the only definite, controlled action we can use to determine hits, because score sheets don't have to be marked in a particular order. In my experience, they often are, but not all the time. For consistency, we teach not referring to previous score sheets.

For what it's worth, there is no gag order. I can only speak for myself, but my dance card is full these days, boys, and I imagine the rest of the instructors are in the same boat. Besides, answering questions is different from arguing about the answers, and I really don't have time for that.

Leroy, ease up. I'll see you in April.

[bobert1]

As Jay told us this past weekend. DO NOT use the previous shooters scoresheet. If stats had just picked up scoresheets, than ALL shooters would not have the ability to compare against past scoresheets.

[Flexmoney]

... because score sheets don't have to be marked in a particular order. In my experience, they often are, but not all the time. For consistency, we teach not referring to previous score sheets.

If the evidence proves unreliable, then you don't use it. That is what the rule says.

As Jay told us this past weekend. DO NOT use the previous shooters scoresheet. If stats had just picked up scoresheets, than ALL shooters would not have the ability to compare against past scoresheets.

If the evidence is unavailable, then you don't use it.

The rule doesn't say anything about having to work for ALL. What is says is to ascertain is you can accurately determine the score for the shooter.

If the evidence is available and reliable...USE IT.

The greater injustice is to order up a reshoot that is not warranted. Good or bad, if we can determine the score, then the shooter should ALWAYS be scored on their first attempt at the course of fire. THAT is what is fair for ALL.

[lcs]

I have to agree with Flex.

The rule book does not prevent using the last shooters score sheet as part of my decision process.

I can understand RMI take on it also, but the rulebook does not prevent us from using a previous score sheet to support a decision.

I better be able to justify my decision to the RM if needed.

I always strive to score in the same order at major major matches that I CRO. I teach my ROs the same. This gives me the confidence to use the previous score sheet as an aid to arriving at the correct scoring call.

[Flexmoney]

It could be as simple as a 25y El Prez (best 4 hits per target).

- Shooter 1 runs it clean, with 12 Alphas. (T1=4A, T2=4A, T3=4A)

- We go to score for Shooter 2 and realize that T3 didn't get pasted. There are 6 Alphas and 2 Charlies on T3.

It is obvious...from the available evidence...what he proper hits are for Shooter 2. Score that run!