Does a shot without a trigger pull equal a malfunction?

[scooterj]

It's a DQ, pure and simple. As others have pointed out, it's a shot fired, regardless of the reason. Basically the idea is that you're on the hook to bring a safe weapon.

FWIW, I earned a DQ for the same problem when my gun developed hammer follow on match day. At the time, I thought it might have been a malfunction, but running it up the chain at NROI cleared that misconception up for me.

BB

I'm just curious, what type of gun was it? I had a .45 that would only hammer follow on a slide release with no magazine, but it would leave it in the half-cocked position.

Anyone ever had "striker-follow"? Or are those types of guns made with a block that doesn't allow it?

It was a custom 2011

[Nik Habicht]

We don't care. The onus is on the shooter to bring a gun that runs. If the shooter brings an unsafe firearm, and breaks a safety rule as a result, the shooter is disqualified. Whether they intended to fire or not is irrelevant to this discussion.

First off you need to back off. I offer an observation and you jump down my throat.

Second. A lot people are using the word " fired". According to the rulebook definition a "shot" requires only the bullet moving through and exiting the barrel. No requirement for the primer to ignite the powder producing gas and pushing the bullet out of the barrel. A bullet could fall out of the barrel and be classified as a shot. If it does'nt leave the barrel no shot has occurred by definition from my little rule book and what is posted online.

Third. Your statement " We don't care" says a lot. It's time that changes.

While I was only offering an observation in the beginning it's time to comment on the rules.

Fourth. Rules that people make assumptions about which is quite evident on the first page of this discussion. Very bad as a rule should be clear cut and clear to anyone reading it. When people start reading into the rules you get problems.

Fifth. Ranking rules in order of which takes precedence over another rule.

This rule says this but this one says that but neither control but this one does. A fine example is 5.7.1. There is no mention of a DQ in it. People point to 10.4 but 10.4 and this is key " a shooter competitor WHO causes" and the only way a shooter can cause a discharge to happen is if the finger was on the trigger and in this one case it was not. If the trigger is not pulled what you have is a malfunction as stated in 5.7.1 that allows for a shooter to repair if possible. No mention of a DQ.

Sixth in 10.4.3.1 there exists an exception? An exception that one can reasonably argue to be extended to what occurred in the OP. Granted the incident mentioned in the OP was not during an unload but it does bring back the stated malfunction alibi others have said was removed yet still exists in the rules. As a result no DQ should be given under the conditions as stated in the OP.

1. Wasn't jumping down your throat -- just offering my perspective as one of the leaders in the sport, namely that we don't care what the excuse is, because nothing excuses an unsafe action.

2. O.K. -- there's a likely situation, given rifled barrels in our barrels.....

3. No actually my statement didn't imply that I don't care about the sport, or about improving it. You can look up to #1 where there's an explanation for exactly what I meant. I've been working in and for this sport for a solid decade -- clearly I care.

4. We actually offer classes in rules reading and interpretation -- they're called range officer seminars and taught by NROI instructors. I've sat through three of them in the last 10 years, the last one in 2011. Have you taken a seminar yet?

5. Here's what 5.7.1 actually says:

5.7.1 A competitor who experiences a handgun malfunction while responding to the “Make Ready” command, but prior to issuance of the “Start Signal”, is entitled to retire to repair his handgun without penalty, under the authority and supervision of the officiating Range Officer and subject to the provisions of Rule 5.7.5, Rule 8.3.1.1, and all other safety rules. Once the repairs have been completed (and the provisions of Rule 5.1.7 have been satisfied, if applicable), the competitor may return to attempt the course of fire, subject to scheduling as determined by the officiating Range Officer or Range Master.

Now what does that mean?

A competitor who experiences a handgun malfunction while responding to the “Make Ready” command, but prior to issuance of the “Start Signal”, is entitled to retire to repair his handgun without penalty

O.K., sometimes competitors discover that their guns are broken at "Make Ready." As long as it happens before the start signal, there's no need for anyone to be a jerk about it, so the board decided to give the competitor an opportunity to repair his gear or to change guns (more on a gun change later). That's not a completely free pass though -- there are conditions attached:

[Nik Habicht]

under the authority and supervision of the officiating Range Officer

The RO needs to determine that the gun is clear, and is still in control of the situation until he has issued the "Range is Clear" command. And there's more:

and subject to the provisions of Rule 5.7.5:

5.7.5 Under no circumstances is a competitor permitted to leave a course of fire in the possession of a loaded handgun (see Rule 10.5.13).

So, the gun needs to be clear before the competitor can leave the bay to go to a safety table to repair his gun, or to do anything else. There's also the reference to 10.5.13:

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

...

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

Competitor walks away with a loaded gun -- match DQ. Next 5.7.1 continues with:

Rule 8.3.1.1

8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

Again that rule exists to describe the responsibilities of the competitor with the broken gun -- who can't leave the start location without approval/supervision/direction from the RO. Then 5.7.1 continues:

and all other safety rules.

That's pretty much Chapter 10, subsections 10.3, 10.4, and 10.5 though there may the odd other safety rule scattered throughout the rulebook.

So bottom line to this point -- if a competitor commits a safety infraction he has not complied with the requirements of 5.7.1, and therefore can not reshoot the course of fire after making repairs. He/she is disqualified from the match. Should the competitor avoid any such safety infraction then the second sentence in 5.7.1 comes into play:

Once the repairs have been completed (and the provisions of Rule 5.1.7 have been satisfied, if applicable), the competitor may return to attempt the course of fire, subject to scheduling as determined by the officiating Range Officer or Range Master.

That sentence basically deals with two things -- the timing of any reshoot attempt: after repairs have been completed, and subject to scheduling by the match staff -- and the reference to Rule 5.1.7, if it applies. 5.1.7 outlines the process by which a competitor may replace his gun with another, for purposes of finishing a match.

6. 10.4.3 deals with a match DQ for a shot fired while loading, reloading or unloading. It specifically includes any shot fired during the events described in 8.3.1 (Make Ready) and 8.3.7 (If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster). 10.4.3.1 provides for an exception for a detonation that occurs during unloading only. The exception cannot be applied to the loading process. Detonation is further defined in the Glossary as:

Detonation . . . . . . . . . . . .Ignition of the primer of a round, other than by action of a firing pin, where the bullet does not pass through the barrel (e.g. when a slide is being manually retracted,when a round is dropped).

Detonation is quite different from Shot.

This isn't hard, and folks who have actually taken an RO seminar generally have little difficulty understanding the concepts.

Opinions don't matter when it comes to rules interpretations -- they either align with NROI guidance, or they don't. Opinions are fine, when you contact your area director to petition for a rule change.....

[twodownzero]

Anyone ever had "striker-follow"? Or are those types of guns made with a block that doesn't allow it?

The drop safety would prevent that unless the trigger bar were holding it "off."

[Schutzenmeister]

Anyone ever had "striker-follow"? Or are those types of guns made with a block that doesn't allow it?

The drop safety would prevent that unless the trigger bar were holding it "off."

On most guns ... However, it is possible to remove or disable the drop safety bar on just about any of them. I don't condone the practice, but there you have it.

[wgnoyes]

[...]

Let me ask you - if I enter my vehicle without checking my taillights and get pulled over and ticketed for a non-functioning light - do you think it appropriate for me to say "I'm sorry, judge - I didn't know the light was out?"

Why not argue PTSD ...

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Post Traumatic Signal Disorder!

I like that! We used to call it TICE, which is Traumatic Immediate Cranial Evacuation, that is, upon the start signal, your brains and whatever plan you had promptly drain out through your ears into your earmuffs.

[Stuck in C]

Slight thread drift, but it still might apply. Last year I was an RO at a very major match, and I had a shooter forcefully rack the slide after the hammer followed, and this time the gun discharged when the hammer followed again (finger off the trigger, pistol pointed at the target). I stopped him and called a DQ. I was overruled by the famous RM, who called it a malfunction and not a DQ. After reading this thread and looking at 10.44 I now think I was right.

In retrospect, the correct action was to stop him after the initial hammer follow (no shot, obviously a malfunction), but he was much faster at racking the slide than I was at thinking or seeing. I have seriously considered giving up being an RO, as my reactions are just too slow to be safe.

[Chuck Anderson]

Slight thread drift, but it still might apply. Last year I was an RO at a very major match, and I had a shooter forcefully rack the slide after the hammer followed, and this time the gun discharged when the hammer followed again (finger off the trigger, pistol pointed at the target). I stopped him and called a DQ. I was overruled by the famous RM, who called it a malfunction and not a DQ. After reading this thread and looking at 10.44 I now think I was right.

In retrospect, the correct action was to stop him after the initial hammer follow (no shot, obviously a malfunction), but he was much faster at racking the slide than I was at thinking or seeing. I have seriously considered giving up being an RO, as my reactions are just too slow to be safe.

No reason to stop him for the initial hammer follow. My &$@)$>|€~€ ing gun, and my backup did it 20ish times at Nationals last year. I don't see any reason to give up over that you did fine.