Define "Hip Bone"...

[Sin-ster]

This is the best I could find in the archives-- and it's 8+ years old. The missing pictures make it hard to really follow the discussion, and from what I can gather by Flex's posts on "center of the hip bone", the wording in Appendix E3 has changed. (It just says "hip bone" now-- nothing about the center.)

Old Discussion

So, what gives?

I've had a couple of people at local matches rib me for the pouches looking to be fairly forward, as I'm a Production shooter. I always reply, "You're free to reach in there and check my hip bone if you like." Needless to say-- no one has.

The combination of the wording and the diagram are extremely confusing, at least for me. Throw in the fact that no two people are built alike (and I'm both scary skinny and have high and pronounced hip bones), and it becomes even more confusing.

Finally, it came up in a class I took this weekend with the incomparable Manny Bragg. He said at one of the Major Matches (I believe it was IPSC Worlds), the way they checked was to have you press up against a flat surface/wall; if your hip bones touched before your pouches or holster, you were GTG. (In the class, I was about 1/4-1/2" off on the pouches for this test.)

The problem is in the wording-- what constitutes the hip bone, and what constitutes behind it? The most forward part I can feel "bone" in the hip area is vastly different from the "peak"; a couple of centimeters behind that forward part is vastly different from a couple of centimeters behind the peak.

The center line of the body reference (found in the linked post above) leaves a lot to be desired as well. Neither the front tip NOR the peak of my hip bone lines up with my centerline; as skinny as I am, even running the pouches on top of each other with zero cant, I'd have my last mag (maybe even two) past my spine; talk about unfair advantages based on body type... To top it all off, not a single pair of pants or shorts that I'd wear to a match have a seam that lines up with my hip, either. A bigger waist and larger thighs again would show a serious advantage.

So... with essentially a major-per-month scheduled for me this season, including Nationals, I think I'd like to get some clarification on this ASAP. What defines the "hip bone"-- and perhaps most importantly, how is this rule enforced?

[yoshidaex]

I've seen RO's ask shooters to point out where his hip bone is and to adjust his equipment accordingly.

Be safe and pick a spot behind your hip bone.

That way you won't be asked to adjust if it is required.

I understand the lack of "real estate" on certain people and excess on others.

In the instance of lack of, you'll have to have mags spaced closer together, use those pouches that orient the bullets outward or deal with pouches past the small of your back.

[HI5-O]

I've asked shooters to point out the location of their hip bones when they come to the line. Some are pretty obvious and some are not so obvious.

Some people with a lot of 'real estate' may not be able to press up against a flat wall

[Skydiver]

I can sympathize with your plight of not having a lot a real estate to place pouches and needing a clear definition. I have to ask, though: what is your waist size and what pouches are you using?

For shooting Production and/or Single Stack, I've figured out for myself that Versa pouches will not work for me because they use up too much real estate. It's Comptac Belt-Fed for Production for me, and Uncle Mike's pouches for Single Stack for my 28"-30" waist.

[a.roberts]

To me, it's the front point of the hip. The picture in App E3 seems to point there too.

edited for clarity

Edited March 6, 2012 by a.roberts

[Skydiver]

And a picture that goes beyond arrows to defining lines still falls short without a definition of a hip bone:

[Sin-ster]

I can sympathize with your plight of not having a lot a real estate to place pouches and needing a clear definition. I have to ask, though: what is your waist size and what pouches are you using?

Depending on the pants, I wear a 30 or 32. Realistically, we could say a 31 would fit me properly.

I'm using CR Speeds, but I have some cant in them that prevents me from stacking them right next to each other. I could lose the advantage of the cant (as I perceive it anyway), or lose the real estate. Depending on the definition of hip bone, the answer for me changes-- lovely!

To me' date=' it's the front point of the hip. The picture in App E3 seems to point there too.[/quote']

That was my take as well, and that's what I had been using. "The furthest forward part of the bone as I can feel it." For me, that's notably further forward than the peak/crest of the hip. Being so skinny, it's almost even with the front of my abs-- a FAR cry from my "midline".

And a picture that goes beyond arrows to defining lines still falls short without a definition of a hip bone.

That IPSC diagram correlates more with what I interpreted from the written rules, and what I believe a.roberts is thinking of as well. That guy's hip bones just aren't as far forward as mine, but the picture makes more sense. Although it's just a sketch... that dude is built a lot more like me than the picture in Appendix E3, on top of everything else.

[Sin-ster]

Asking me to point out my hip bone is all fine and good, as is picking a spot safely behind them...

IF you can define "hip bone."

The way I define it, I've been in compliance from day one. The way an RO, CRO or RM defines it at a Major may differ, however-- and I'd rather shoot in my Class and Division than have to win Open Unclassified shooting minor, iron sights and 17 rounds in my mags.

I highly doubt an RO who asked me to point them out would believe me, especially since the bias already exists as the pouches look too far forward from the onset. As always-- folks are welcome to give them a feel! I *know* they aren't forward of the bone-- I use that spot as an index for the whole rig, when I put it on.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Sin-ster

[mpolans]

What the leg bone is connected to. Sorry, couldn't help it...

[Jadeslade]

Yeah, this can get debatable. The hip as defined anatomically stops at the Anterior Superior Iliac Spine-ASIS. If someone thinks the "center of the hip" is the hip, they are incorrect. That is actually pelvis. You are correct in that the hip as you feel it is the forward point you feel slightly anterior to the pelvic crest. You are thin enough in that it is easily felt. In a lot of people there is some stuff between the skin and the ASIS and unless you push really hard, everything is kind of mushy. One of the old rule books had the definition of the midline on trousers (like the stripe on dress blues) If you are big that may not correlate. Its a judgment and most of the the time if the first stage you are on the RO checks it and feels it good to go, you're good for the day. Any dispute goes to Match Director. In IPSC matches, you have a card where they draw your gear placement and check it at each stage. It is supposed to stay the same throughout the match. Commonly, when you gear up you ask the nearest 3 people and they go yay or nay and the game begins. If it looks wrong, it probably is. At a major, get it clarified on the first stage and you won't have any problem the rest of the match. DVC

[bbbean]

This has always been a bit of a tricky issue for me, too (Single Stack). It does occur to me that instead of relying on a variable and often misunderstood piece of anatomy, the position could be determined by circumference. i.e. "mag pouches and holster must 1/6 of total circumference off the front center line." In practice, this would mean that a shooter with a 36" belt (easily checked with a tape measure) would need to have his gun and mags at least 12" apart, centered in front (again, easily checked with a tape measure). No one would need to go digging around for hip bones, pants construction would be irrelevant, and you could get a definitive answer at home before the match.

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

Finally, it came up in a class I took this weekend with the incomparable Manny Bragg. He said at one of the Major Matches (I believe it was IPSC Worlds), the way they checked was to have you press up against a flat surface/wall; if your hip bones touched before your pouches or holster, you were GTG. (In the class, I was about 1/4-1/2" off on the pouches for this test.)

[...]

While I have no reason to doubt Manny's story, I don't think it was at the WS in Greece. I worked the equipment check-in and inspection tables (specifically for Standard and Modified ... The Production guys were next to me on my left) during the pre-match and I do not recall anyone performing the test you describe. I suppose it may be possible someone did such a check at a stage somewhere, though I didn't hear of it happening. Perhaps it was some other match?

[beltjones]

Paging bobmysterious!

Edited March 6, 2012 by beltjones

[Sin-ster]

While I have no reason to doubt Manny's story, I don't think it was at the WS in Greece. I worked the equipment check-in and inspection tables (specifically for Standard and Modified ... The Production guys were next to me on my left) during the pre-match and I do not recall anyone performing the test you describe. I suppose it may be possible someone did such a check at a stage somewhere, though I didn't hear of it happening. Perhaps it was some other match?

Quite possibly; heck, likely even that it was another match. I was so busy soaking up information that little details like that probably got filtered out to make room for the meat of the stuff! He did talk about the card and equipment check at every stage, and I do remember that it was a huge match he used as an example for the enforcement technique. Nationals? Worlds a few years earlier? He's been to so many!

Yeah' date=' this can get debatable. The hip as defined anatomically stops at the Anterior Superior Iliac Spine-ASIS. If someone thinks the "center of the hip" is the hip, they are incorrect. That is actually pelvis. You are correct in that the hip as you feel it is the forward point you feel slightly anterior to the pelvic crest. You are thin enough in that it is easily felt. In a lot of people there is some stuff between the skin and the ASIS and unless you push really hard, everything is kind of mushy. One of the old rule books had the definition of the midline on trousers (like the stripe on dress blues) If you are big that may not correlate. Its a judgment and most of the the time if the first stage you are on the RO checks it and feels it good to go, you're good for the day. Any dispute goes to Match Director. In IPSC matches, you have a card where they draw your gear placement and check it at each stage. It is supposed to stay the same throughout the match. Commonly, when you gear up you ask the nearest 3 people and they go yay or nay and the game begins. If it looks wrong, it probably is. At a major, get it clarified on the first stage and you won't have any problem the rest of the match. DVC[/quote']

That's good stuff-- I can argue that! The only downside with getting clarification on the first stage is that it might be radically different from where I've worn them throughout the rest of the season-- most notably in practice.

This has always been a bit of a tricky issue for me' date=' too (Single Stack). It does occur to me that instead of relying on a variable and often misunderstood piece of anatomy, the position could be determined by circumference. i.e. "mag pouches and holster must 1/6 of total circumference off the front center line." In practice, this would mean that a shooter with a 36" belt (easily checked with a tape measure) would need to have his gun and mags at least 12" apart, centered in front (again, easily checked with a tape measure). No one would need to go digging around for hip bones, pants construction would be irrelevant, and you could get a definitive answer at home before the match.[/quote']

Agreed, something standardized like that would be ideal. I was thinking just a definition of the hip bone would work-- like the one Jadeslade and I seem to share. However, as he pointed out, finding said spot on some shooters would be difficult; I think your method is right on the money. Tailor's tape and problem solved!

What the leg bone is connected to. Sorry' date=' couldn't help it...[/quote']

For once... I didn't see that one lurking around the corner!

[bikerburgess]

The way I interpret it, it is the point of the hip like you are saying the area I think some people push the rule is by not drawing the line strait through both hip points but angled back towards their spine. The way I check mine is I put the tip of my finger on the point of my hip and point my finger towards the other hip point if my gear is behind my finger I'm good to go

[diehli]

The way I interpret it, it is the point of the hip like you are saying the area I think some people push the rule is by not drawing the line strait through both hip points but angled back towards their spine. The way I check mine is I put the tip of my finger on the point of my hip and point my finger towards the other hip point if my gear is behind my finger I'm good to go

I agree with this. Basically, all gear must be behind the plane created by the iliac crests.

[LPatterson]

I am just glad the rule book doesn't try to define waist. If someone said bellybutton then I could never shoot Production or Single Stack again.

[Skydiver]

This has always been a bit of a tricky issue for me, too (Single Stack). It does occur to me that instead of relying on a variable and often misunderstood piece of anatomy, the position could be determined by circumference. i.e. "mag pouches and holster must 1/6 of total circumference off the front center line." In practice, this would mean that a shooter with a 36" belt (easily checked with a tape measure) would need to have his gun and mags at least 12" apart, centered in front (again, easily checked with a tape measure). No one would need to go digging around for hip bones, pants construction would be irrelevant, and you could get a definitive answer at home before the match.

+100.

It'll make setting up a production or single stack belt a lot easier. Put chalk marks at the intended center. Measure left and right and put additional chalk marks. Put on belt with gear and adjust keeping an eye on the chalk marks. Tighten things down when happy. :-)

I'm quite sure that people who are more "round" rather than "flat" may get an advantage, but I think it evens out since they'll be dragging more mass around a CoF as well.

[sdm74]

It would be simple for the powers that be to reword the rule.

1. Holster must be behind the furthest forward part of hip bone

2. Holster must be centered on hip bone.

3. Holster must be behind furthest rear part of hip bone

[atbarr]

I'm quite sure that people who are more "round" rather than "flat" may get an advantage, but I think it evens out since they'll be dragging more mass around a CoF as well.

+1

[Sin-ster]

So we still don't REALLY know how this is enforced-- other than "it probably varies?"

Has anyone run into this issue at a Major?

[Sarge]

I am just glad the rule book doesn't try to define waist. If someone said bellybutton then I could never shoot Production or Single Stack again.

+1 and some of us would some serious belt extenders!

[beltjones]

So we still don't REALLY know how this is enforced-- other than "it probably varies?"

Has anyone run into this issue at a Major?

Forum member bobmysterious was bumped to Open at Production Nats last year. The RO poked around his hip bone quite a bit before moving him. Maybe he can chime in on how exactly it was measured.

[Sin-ster]

Forum member bobmysterious was bumped to Open at Production Nats last year. The RO poked around his hip bone quite a bit before moving him. Maybe he can chime in on how exactly it was measured.

Ick. But that's exactly the type of info I think we need, yeah?

On a side note-- "beltjones" is a darned applicable name for this thread!

[bobmysterious]

Paging bobmysterious!

Damn, I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread.

From my experience I can tell you that the hipbone was the furthest forward point, not necessarily the peak, of the bone. Line up a plane 90 degrees straight off of that point and that's basically where the measurement is checked from. To be safe, and to avoid being poked, just use the outer seam of your pants or the pocket as an index point. Roughly 3 o'clock on your waist. It's a tough and subjective rule to call and enforce, so just err on the side of caution. Or do what I did. I bought an Open gun this afternoon.

Or you could push your luck and come challenge my title. After all, I am the defending Open Champion (at the Limited/Production Nationals).