2012 FNH USA 3 Gun

[jmfs21]

a

Edited September 25, 2012 by jmfs21

[sbmd]

[

As for Larry, I think it best you dont shoot the day of your own match and just spend time running it, you did a great job setting it up and getting it together, I think it could of been even better with your full attention all 3 days.

How could it have been better? That is why there was a Range Master for each area and a CRO and many ROs for each stage. I have shot Larrys matches for years and he does not need to babysit either his match or his staff.

Thanks Mike for jumoing in there to defend my actions.....anyone who shoots wants to shoot a major match. There is no match director that I know of that does not shoot their match. What you don't know is I run around by myself getting the staff everything they need while they are shooting on staff day so they can concentrate on shooting. I have an assistant match director that takes my duties while I am not available such as getting fuel for the staff razrs, we need additional range supplies, checking on all the firearms for the prize table that continued to come in up to the day before the banquet or how about setting up the prize table. Oh yea all that is done when I am not actually shooting. Of course when I am not actually on the line shooting I am communicating with the AMD, RMs and other match staff. So for the whole time of about 2.5 minutes of shooting I am dedicated to the match. But I guess you didn't see me arriving every morning at 6 am and leaving at 6 pm because you were only shooting for a half day. Now do I sound a little upset with you post, you bet I do. I see that you have been on this forum all of a year. Which to me probably means you are pretty new to this sport which is great. However might I suggest before you start criticizing someone for what they do, take a step back and understand what they really do or volunteer to be a part of our match next year and you can see exactly how much I do that is not seen by the shooters. Before I went to work with FN on Sept 4, 2012, everything I did for this match in the past two years was on my own time to include taking vacation like every other member of the match staff to run it.

Sorry for the rant, but that hit a nerve!

Larry

[Jim Norman]

Having been around for a little while and having RO'd at this match and a number of others including Area and National matches, the issue of new ROs or ROs that had not RO'd a major match is a non-issue. Every stage had a number of very experienced ROs and a couple ROs that were less experienced. Why? Simple if we don't have new ROs, sooner or later we won't have any ROs. We need to train the new ROs someplace and whuile a club match is good, it is not the same as a major. None of us are getting younger. Some people have RO'd for years and are tired. Others on occasion want to just shoot and there needs to be a cadre of replacement ROs.

Larry and Howard would not put the safety of the shooters or of the Range at risk by using unqualified people.

[sbmd]

Rules are rules. Sometimes I don't like them, or wonder what the hell they were thinking, but they are rules. I liked most all of the stages. I didn't like how pistol was basically taken out of the mix. Yes there were choices, but the pistol was rarely the most logical of the choices.

Before I say this, I will start off by saying most of the stages were ran very well by the RO's. But,,,,,, I hear way too many RO's on here saying this was their FIRST BIG MATCH and FIRST TIME AS AN RO. I am new to the sport myself but at my experience level I would NEVER try to RO. So many people pay great money to go to these matches to have someone thats never done this before make decisions that could make or break someone's experience in the sport.

Oh I can answer this one as I see more and more of it. 3 gun match fees are higher than a pistol match.....obviously some would say there is more involved. Yep it takes more staff to run the match correctly. However as more new people get into the sport, we will continue to see this as a way to offset thier costs.

We desperately need a range officer training course for 3 gun however we have no governing body. With no governing body there is no range officer certification requirements. We tried to pair new people up with seasoned people. We have some adjustments to make for next year.

I hear everything people are saying and if you have ever shot my matches in the past, they get better and better each year. Remember this is only my second match as a 3 gun match director.

[sbmd]

The property owner is very safety concious. We decided this at the RO meeting due to the potential safety aspect that a firearm having a round in the chamber not on safe could come in contact with another firearm in the same barrel during the grounding action could manipulate the trigger thus causing an unintentional discharge. This was done merely for this aspect and no one can be 100% sure that a firearm has no rounds in it. I have seen people think the gun was empty not put it on safe to later find out there is a round sitting on the lifter with the bolt locked open.

this is why there are stage dq's and procedurals. I have never been dq'd from a uspsa match or any other match in my life. especially for something this irrelevant. i truley believe you put on probrably the best match i have seen so far. This specific rule I think is unreasonable and unfair. i have looked since i have gotten home for any situation involving 2 guns in 1 tube, from what i have seen , you have a better chance of getting hit with lightning.again this is constructive criticism and not an insult.

I take criticism and apply it accordingly if presented in the correct manner. I will take it from your comments that you got DQ'd in the match. You stated that you have never been DQ'd before. I have a news flash....there are two types of people that shoot this sport, those that have been DQ'd and those that will be DQ'd.

Another note if you want to provide constructive criticism, send me a PM. Don't look for an audience in the open forum.

Larry

[Benelli Chick]

Two things:

One - Totally understand why it all touched a nerve...any time now, you'll be talking about all the money Larry's making off this match!

(Just to be clear - I am being sarcastic! Being a match director is a LOT of hidden work that no one really sees and the payoff is kind words and a sense of accomplishment when 3-Gunners enjoy your match and say nice things - there is no money! Honestly, it's a fulltime job without pay!!! I so appreciate all the match directors that give so much so that we can play!!! Thanks to ALL of you!!!

Two - we're holding a Natural Terrain/non-USPSA RO clinic in Raton on March 30, 2013. Yes, it is meant to help train up RO's for Rocky Mountain 3-Gun/Johnson 3-Gun matches, but I think it's a solid RO class and stresses being more independent when working where your radios don't work and you're far away from help/electricity etc. We of course talk about our rules, but at the same time, we talk about other alternative rule sets and things that others might see! Last years' went very well. We still pair up experienced with inexperienced for a bit. We don't believe any class can MAKE you a good RO...truly, experience does that...but it's a place to start! Matching new RO's with energy and enthusiasm with more experienced can be energizing for everyone! (Helps the...um...older, tired guys! ) Truthfully, ROing can be so exhausting even when everything is organized! It's a lot of work trying to be the best, see everything, smile and be fair 300 plus times in 3 days! (Pardon the commercial!)

Larry, congrats on a successful match!!!

Denise

Edited September 25, 2012 by Benelli Chick

[2alphas]

Larry, Linda and the entire FNH Staff,

Great job as always. Thank you for all you do for our sport. Looking forward to 2013, if you will have us.

TC

[Solscud007]

Rules are rules. Sometimes I don't like them, or wonder what the hell they were thinking, but they are rules. I liked most all of the stages. I didn't like how pistol was basically taken out of the mix. Yes there were choices, but the pistol was rarely the most logical of the choices.

Before I say this, I will start off by saying most of the stages were ran very well by the RO's. But,,,,,, I hear way too many RO's on here saying this was their FIRST BIG MATCH and FIRST TIME AS AN RO. I am new to the sport myself but at my experience level I would NEVER try to RO. So many people pay great money to go to these matches to have someone thats never done this before make decisions that could make or break someone's experience in the sport.

As this was my first big match and my first time ROing I disagree. I help out at my local USPSA pistol matches and action shotgun matches so I have some experience. However I know my limitations. I limited myself to reseting the steel on stage 1. We have other experienced ROs running the timer, scoring the targets, and checking the firearms as they are staged. The issues with regards to scoring are pretty clear cut, at least for our stage. You miss a steel target or you dont. You hit the paper or you dont. If it was close to the line on the paper we give it to the shooter. Not too difficult. If it was a miss on paper we call the shooter if he or she wants to confirm the miss.

The only issues that arose were people whining about "well that guy did it on that stage". Stop complaining and follow the rules. Regardless about "well the other match I was at did it that way" this is Larry's Match. So follow Larry's rules. nuff said.

Here is Daniel Horner's record setting run on stage 1. His draw and firing of his pistol is really amazing. So smooth.

[babob]

Well I for one had a HELLUVA good time! Special thanks to EVERYONE involved in making this match happen. It was my first FNH match and I got the opportunity to shoot with a great bunch of other shooters. I can't wait to come again next year.

[jmfs21]

a

Edited September 25, 2012 by jmfs21

[bigjimmy57]

What you have to say will come with a lot of criticism because you are wrong. If its written in the rules then it is the RULE. It doesn't matter what other matches do. This is the rule for this match. Everyone had the same opportunity to make the same mistake but most didn't because they followed the rules. Just my opinion

Edited September 25, 2012 by bigjimmy57

[jmfs21]

a

Edited September 25, 2012 by jmfs21

[Gaoler]

we have no governing body.

I hope it stays that way

With no governing body there is no range officer certification requirements.

True, but... Your solution (below) is more than adequate IMHO

We tried to pair new people up with seasoned people.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Gaoler

[Howard762]

I recruited the staff for this match and while we had about 20% ROs who had never ROed at a major 3 gun they were spread out evenly among the stages along with the very experienced. I went to great lengths to vet the potential staff and all of the applicants were not accepted. The placement of staff was very carefully done, and although there were some mistakes I think they did a fantastic job. Remember we're not professionals. We're part time people who really care about the competitors and try very hard to be as impartial and unobtrusive as possible. These people gave several days of their vacation time to work up to 18 hours a day to ensure the highest quality match. I'm proud of them and thank them every chance I get.

Here are a few things to consider:

- Larry ran the Summer Blast for several years as a USPSA pistol match, and it improved every year. By the end of it's run it was as good as any match in the country, better than the vast majority. He just turned his attention to multi-gun a year ago. He'll continue to improve this match too, and I think he's already got one hell of a start.

- Larry prepared this match from New Mexico up until about a week before the match. Though a lot of things can be done over the phone and internet some of them have to be done on the ground. He worked hard to cover every detail in that short time, and sometimes he missed something. Larry has moved back to the east coast and it will make a tremendous difference in the quality of this match.

- The staff is getting more experienced all the time.

- The range is getting better all the time.

- Multi-gun is still evolving. The rules are fluid and not every rule fits the next situation. Maybe someday they will be more cohesive, but...

Howard C Thompson

Assistant Match Director

2012 FNH 3 Gun Championship

[Bryan 45]

I will do a rewrite of the rules but I will not turn our rules into the 100 pages like the USPSA rule book. I can rule you to death. If you like the fact there are not a lot of rules keeping shooting the match. If you want more rules, shoot USPSA!

Larry

This is why I shoot outlaw 3 gun. Thank you Larry, Range Masters, ROs, Peacemaker, Linda, Kerrin, Mary, the food vendors, sponsors, Samson (for the banquet), Black Rain Ordnance (for the RO dinner) and Gerald for all the hard work!

I've seen a lot of cool things at 3 gun matches, but Ken Pfau presenting Gerald w/ a FNH SC-2 was probably very near the top of the list. Thank you Ken! (I think the Barrett beer trailer at Pro-Am was the coolest.)

[bigjimmy57]

What you have to say will come with a lot of criticism because you are wrong. If its written in the rules then it is the RULE. It doesn't matter what other matches do. This is the rule for this match. Everyone had the same opportunity to make the same mistake but most didn't because they followed the rules. Just my opinion

this is the problem with forums. it was NEVER written. Also if it were ,it was considered a safety violation. which stated on page one of the "written" rules that it was not subject to arbitration, thus saving me the 100 bucks for arbitration. just cause someone says you cannot stand on your left foot in a match doesnt make it right.....

Sorry for my mis-information on that. Either way it was still told to us that you could NOT abandon two weapons in the same barrel. So it was still the rule.

It sucks to be DQ'd but its worse with the way your handling it. If you have a problem with it happening you should PM Larry like he told you and not keep it going on here. It will or has happened to all of us.

[busyhawk]

stage 3...on that same stage another shooter who placed in the top was told he had left 5 papers standing from another shooter and was allowed to keep shooting until he was finished. my point is, this was a really good match, it just needed a little bit of consistency in the rule book.

Just to be clear...this shooter heard "paper" from the croud (before unload and show clear was given) and did in fact shoot the paper! Now, as the RM of that stage I had to hand out a violation penalty to someone...The person (shooter also) told me that he shouted "Paper" and was assesed a 20 second procedural penalty for that stage for coaching (before he even got to shoot the stage)! It was not the shooters fault that he heard "Paper". Sound fair now? If the shouter didn't fess up then the shooter would have not been given credit for any other shot after the "Paper" was ID'd.

We really do try to be fair...if we can't do that then why do we keep score?

Respectfully,

RMA

Busyhawk

[jmfs21]

My appologies if I have offended people. My intention's were never to make anyone upset or take away for all the hard work you all have done. This was a bad judgement call on my part and for that I appologize. This is what happens when you are watching Monday night football drinking beer, while still having this horrible taste of being DQ'd in your mouth from 2 days before. I can admit when I handle a situation the wrong way. Again sorry and I will see some of you at brm3g. John

[Onagoth]

All in all a fantastic match!

Thanks to all those who volunteered their time and efforts!

[swandme]

Great Match

This is my favorite major 3 Gun Match because of the Smooth running 1/2 Day Format and we especially like the endless options each shooter has to complete the Stage

to the best of their skill and equipments abilities.

My son and I really enjoyed the shooting the match and We want to thank all the Staff for all the Hard work you did setting Steel and Taping.

Love this part of the Country.

Great Side Matches

Everything was very well organized

As for Larry He is all about taking care of everyone else before himself from what we experienced.

He stopped by the SCAR side match just as one of the Targets Failed Even though he was supposed to be shooting next he took time to retrieve the target and had someone out to repair it ASAP.

Keep up the Good Work

We will be back

Dan & Jack

[dmshozer1]

The property owner is very safety concious. We decided this at the RO meeting due to the potential safety aspect that a firearm having a round in the chamber not on safe could come in contact with another firearm in the same barrel during the grounding action could manipulate the trigger thus causing an unintentional discharge. This was done merely for this aspect and no one can be 100% sure that a firearm has no rounds in it. I have seen people think the gun was empty not put it on safe to later find out there is a round sitting on the lifter with the bolt locked open.

this is why there are stage dq's and procedurals. I have never been dq'd from a uspsa match or any other match in my life. especially for something this irrelevant. i truley believe you put on probrably the best match i have seen so far. This specific rule I think is unreasonable and unfair. i have looked since i have gotten home for any situation involving 2 guns in 1 tube, from what i have seen , you have a better chance of getting hit with lightning.again this is constructive criticism and not an insult.

I take criticism and apply it accordingly if presented in the correct manner. I will take it from your comments that you got DQ'd in the match. You stated that you have never been DQ'd before. I have a news flash....there are two types of people that shoot this sport, those that have been DQ'd and those that will be DQ'd.

Another note if you want to provide constructive criticism, send me a PM. Don't look for an audience in the open forum.

Larry

Larry,

If you want criticism, here it comes!!!

Been doing 3gun for a very long time. I have been to most of the big matches.

Most of them have in one way or another been a "cluster F". Way behind schedule, shooting in the dark, impossible

stages that even the big boys have trouble with,ridiculous shooting positions, running between shooting positions that require track shoes, food schedule screwed up,scores days later, prize table order messed up and on and on.

That's all I can remember at the moment.

Your match had none of these problems. PERIOD!

Hope you don't mind the criticism.

These are my feelings after shooting the worst match of my life! Really.

[CJW]

im not whining. 2 "empty" guns in 1 bucket is not unsafe... and to say that having 2 guns loaded or unloaded i a dump tube would be calling most other match directors and match's unsafe. No other match DQ's for 2 empty guns in 1 dump tube. there is NO safety violations with this. the loaded mags on stage 3 were not staged guns they were holstered guns that were dumped with mags loaded off of safe.

The property owner is very safety concious.

Larry, as somebody who shoots a lot of matches at PNTC, I am all for rules that keep Cole happy and inviting us back.

The "one gun per dump bucket" rule was covered many times; frankly, I don't recall being to a match that did not have the same requirement, though I am certain there are matches that allow multiple guns in a barrel. The important thing to remember, though, is that there is no such thing as "two *empty* guns" in a dump bucket---once the shooter goes hot, those guns are loaded until proven otherwise by an RO during Unload and Show Clear. After all, how many of us have seen somebody get DQ'ed because the "empty" gun in the dump barrel turned out to have a round still in it somewhere?

There is one place I think the DQ rules could be modified, though. One of our squad's shooters got DQ'ed on Stage 3 because his sling broke and dumped his rifle. Now, because slung weapons do start completely empty (and are so verified by the RO prior to start), we already allow some leeway here---there is, for example, no 180 restriction on that slung long gun until the shooter loads it. Since there is already an exception like that, I think it would be more reasonable to see a dropped, empty, slung rifle/shotgun be a stage DQ rather than a match DQ. It's a case where we've already decided not to treat that slung gun the same as a hot gun.

Anyway, it was my second year at this match, and I enjoyed the heck out of it again. Larry, you and your staff did an outstanding job. Getting Zone A more-or-less back on schedule after the Friday morning fog was nothing short of a miracle. Kudos to all!

[CJW]

Oh, yeah, and the 3-day, 9 stage, half-day format is the best way to shoot a match, hands down. I never felt rushed, and I had plenty of time to shoot the side matches. Not having to paste and reset was just gravy on top of an already well-organized match!

[Tiny]

I agree on the half day format. I was actually worried that I would get bored with all the extra time. Having the oppertunity to shoot side matches and check out other stages was great. It gave me a chance to be relaxed and comfortable with the stages even though this was only my third match and first major match..... Well I was relaxed until the timer beeper went off. :-)

I was awesome to meet so many accomplished shooters and get advice on everything from equipment, reloading and stage plans. This sport is about as friendly as it gets and I hope it stays that way.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Here is a lesson on how to load your shotgun from bolt lock.